Spinoff: Putting daughter in Public school

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 6:10 pm

Amother who answered my questions, I am sorry that I offended you. I grew up frum and we doven at an MO shul.

A good chunk of the teenagers in my Hebrew School were eating treif and fooling around. The first time I ever heard of shrimp salad was at the home of a girl in my Hebrew School class who offered me some. They would eat unkosher marshmallows and eat dairy out. The first time I ever heard of being "felt up/felt down" was at another girls Bas Mitzvah party. All the girls knew these terms but me.

I don't know if there are degrees of MO or the whole heshkofar moved to the right. I am glad that these boys are observant unlike the MO I grew up with.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 6:57 pm

amother wrote:

65 a week, huh. I get some cleaning help a few times a year. $70 for 2 people for 2 hours total. A little more for Pesach. Yeah, this is a lot per hour but when you only get help a few times a year you can't get into the 10 an hour schedule.
What manicures?
OK, shoes are a weakness. But mine aren't exactly Loubatins. More like matronly type cheap on Amazon.
I have sheitels. I don't need them for work so I wear berets. I usually just wear my sheitel on Shabbos, maybe for events. One sheitel is 13 years old, revived a few years ago with a great haircut, my newer one was 200 from our local used sheitel lady. That was a major splurge for me.
We eat simply. I can't say we don't eat meat but we don't exactly do shnitzel on weekday. More like schnitzel stretched into chicken stir fry or the like.
You're right, where does it end. A very occasional $5 cup of coffee is one thing. But I mean like a few x a year, not a few x a month. It's not just that it adds up but it's a lifestyle choice and statement.
We have got tuition assistance over the years. In the thousands. If we can ever pay it back I'll be grateful. I'm grateful for the community for deciding we were a good investment and the Federation and local donors for giving to the school. We've always been treated with great dignity but the school knows us and knows that we don't abuse their trust. I don't know what we would do if we and the school didn't have this great relationship and mega hugs to everyone who is stuck in such a hard place.

Help ??? Thats what teenage boys are for.. Or chesed girls, otherwise they might as well just be chairleaders in the PS.
Manicures, whats that ? . Shoes come from DejaNew. I wash my own d* wig, thank you very much, ma'am. Meat is for Shabbos, not so healthy anyway.
Five dollar coffee, water was good enough for the Ramban, RA Eiger, and my grandparents. Its good enough for me. There is free internet in the McDonald parking lot.
Either homeschool your kids or pay the tuition.. Its not rocket science...

mille

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 7:38 pm

amother wrote:

Or, perhaps, individual people (especially teenagers!) do what they want, whether it's right or not, and you really can't judge a large group like the whole of 'modern orthodoxy' by the few kids you went to high school with. I also know plenty who were relatively "deviant" in MO yeshiva high school but are now totally frum adults. You'd never know. Kids are kids, to an extent. I'd argue that some kids in more right wing yeshivot are up to no good as well, just perhaps about different things (again, knowing people who went to such schools and did not so kosher things). I mean, plenty of stories on imamother of girls being taught all kinds of lascivious details in beis yakov at way too young an age!

Also, there are families who are just not religious, but value good Jewish education. Some send to solomon schecter and similar schools, but others DO send to MO schools because they are convenient and a good level of education. It really wouldn't make sense for a secular family to send their secular kids to a very right wing yeshiva that teachers no secular subjects or way too limited to be successful in secular college... So MO yeshivot are a good middle ground to that. Yet another reason why you might not want to generalize that all MO are one way or another based on the activities of some kids in yeshiva.

I mean, I can't really say much else because aside from having se-x and doing drugs, I can't possibly fathom what might be damaging or what might "ruin" a high school boy from the rest of your list. Tongue Out

PinkFridge

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 8:25 pm

mille wrote:

Also, there are families who are just not religious, but value good Jewish education. Some send to solomon schecter and similar schools, but others DO send to MO schools because they are convenient and a good level of education. It really wouldn't make sense for a secular family to send their secular kids to a very right wing yeshiva that teachers no secular subjects or way too limited to be successful in secular college... So MO yeshivot are a good middle ground to that. Yet another reason why you might not want to generalize that all MO are one way or another based on the activities of some kids in yeshiva.

Before I read on I had wondered if OP meant if it was a community school that accepted kids from non shomer Shabbos homes, like my Bais Yaakov did.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 9:47 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

MTA is not going to take a boy whose level of education is subpar.

I am fortunate that my son is advanced in his secular studies. I have been able to supplement his secular studies up to this point. I fear that I won't be able to keep pace with him. My son deserves professional educators who are qualified in the subject they are teaching not his mom who is a tyro.

I don't have any concerns about my son not getting into MTA based on academics. I don't have any concerns about my son not being able to do the work. My concern is the culture of the school.

DrMom

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:30 am

I grew up attending US public schools and my friends didn't smoke pot or fool around. It depends with whom you choose to hang out.

OP, you have to decide how much the opinion of others matters to you. Obviously, your community prizes insularity to the point where they would make up nonsense in order to keep people on the path they feel is correct.

Use your common sense. Wearing a colored shirt is not some secret MO fashion code word for "I fool around with girls and take drugs." It's just a shirt. And in the MO world, "talking to girls" does not mean one has intimate relationships with them. It just means one considers them to be humans worthy of conversation. Or it means one is trying to get to know them better -- a normal part of deciding if you might someday want to date someone. It is nothing devious or perverse.

Decide how much conformity to your community's standards is important to you an your family. Take this into account when deciding what is best for your child.

catonmylap

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 3:58 am

I'm married to an MTA graduate.

He wears colored shirts...though he doesn't own a pair of jeans.

He's never smoked pot that I know of. As far as I know, he had his first girlfriend at 19 during his year in Israel. He went to Israel wearing a black hat, but came home in a kipa srugah. He made aliya right after YU. He learned in kollel for the first 2 years we were married before we went on shlichut where he was a community Rabbi.

He has a BA from YU and got smicha in Israel. He's very serious about yiddishkeit. He davens with minyan whenever possible, he learns on his own, and works. Does he sound ruined?

amother

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 9:20 am

I don't think it's accurate to say that ALL kids at a MO HS are fully shomer shabbat/shomer mitzvot.

My experience in teaching at a variety of schools from Schechter to MO to RW to Chabad is this.

Please understand. All generalizations cannot accurately describe everyone. Your mileage may vary. But these are the overviews I have gathered from many years in and out of schools and talking to kids, parents, and teachers.

The MO kids I see are mostly shomer shabbos. There is a percentage, probably between 25 and 50, but closer to 25, who are kinda shomer shabbos except for their cellphones. Most are not shomer negia in that they will touch those of the opposite gender. For the boys, sports are more avidly discussed than Torah, as a rule, and tzitzit are often taken off as soon as a parent isn't looking. A subset of boys are very interested in LK, and are capable of thinking about gemara with fresher perspectives and insights than some of their more RW counterparts because of the classroom training. Most are significantly weaker at reading and translation of Aramaic, but stronger in their Tanach knowledge. Davening is a really mixed bag, with maybe half really focused, and the other half visibly not. At a more RW school, my impression (somewhat 2nd hand for obvious reasons) is that by HS, neither gender would dare act out during davening.

For the girls, their knowledge of Aramaic/mishna/gemara is clearly greater than their RW counterparts, but they tend to know less historia or halacha in detail, and they are much more vocal about challenging their teachers when they are have emuna struggles. As regards tznius, skirts are often short or tight, as are shirts, and skin may be showing between the shirt and skirt. Socks or tights? Not really, not for most.

Both genders in the MO setting learn how to do homework on their own and write papers. In the RW world, the girls are significantly stronger than the boys in this regard, as the boys are expected to devote non class time to gemora learning rather than other homework.

Most MO kids I know keep kosher pretty carefully; very few keep CY, which is seen as a chumra.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 10:38 am

amother wrote:

I just want to say that as far as h.s. boys go, I doubt even RW boys are discussing Torah all the time. My son and some friends do discuss gedolim, who they enjoy reading about and "testing" each other on (as in, have you heard of, who was the rav of, etc.). it's quite cute. But for sure they talk about sports, cars, and all sorts of things. My son not so much but normal healthy yeshivish boys do.

And as far as the girls being vocal on hashkafa, if they're being so because they want answer, and not as a "gotcha", kol hakavod.

I have no idea how across the board amother's observations are. I can't comment and don't really need to as my kids are b"H settled in their schools and we're not making any decisions for a while.

nylon

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 12:29 pm

I think measuring by externals is tricky. I think RW schools are better at getting kids to toe the line behaviorally. MO schools do not encourage quite the same conformity of behavior. RW teens don't all have a great connection to tefilla--they just know not to act out. In the end, we're talking about teenagers, not robots, and they're not all going to behave perfectly.

MO schools often accept students from homes that are not fully observant in the first place, so the school isn't always a terribly good measure of anything but its clientele. If a child comes from a house where Shabbat isn't fully observed, the school is unlikely to change that. If a parent from that kind of home wanted their child to be pushed further in observance they would choose a different school. Yes, MO schools are gentle in how much they push. Fair observation. I do think there is more encouragement of questions and when handled well, a good balance of being challenging without being chutzpadik. (I have observed chutzpa in MO kids that I do NOT like, as a consequence of affluent parents who teach their kids bad material values. Not all, and it is not specifically MO, but I have seen an absolute chillul Hashem in how some of these spoiled kids treat their teachers that has left their non-frum and non-Jewish teachers with a very bad impression of MO kids.)

MO schools vary in their balance of Tanach/Talmud for both boys and girls but typically the boys get less time on Talmud (compared to RW yeshivot) and consequently even when their skills are good, the difference in time results in less material learned and less practice. That said, I believe a boy at a good MO school who works hard WILL have the underlying foundation to go further, and the more balanced curricula in many schools is to their benefit in the long run as well as the short term. (In the short term, a Gemara heavy curriculum can result in frustration and burnout.) Some MO schools have more intensive Talmud options for students who are talented and enjoy it.

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 1:24 pm

amother wrote:

I hope it will put your mind at ease to know that I am Modern Orthodox, and have never heard the term "felt up/felt down" until right now. Well, I've heard "felt up" but not "felt down". Perhaps due to my MO background, I was able to figure out "felt down".

It's part of RW propaganda that MO institutions are dens of iniquity. However, if you don't feel comfortable sending your kid to MTA or another MO school, it will probably not work out. You need to have confidence in the school, otherwise you'll be second guessing everything and passing that lack of confidence along to your kid.

JoyInTheMorning

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 1:29 pm

Granola mom, I work a very demanding (much more than 40 hours per week) job and do not have cleaning help. I do not get manicures or facials. I don't go for coffee. We don't go to movies (for financial rather than religious reasons.) We don't get take out. We eat out for occasions like a kid's birthday, but that's it. We don't save as much for retirement as we should. But we do pay full tuition. Because that is the top priority.

Yes, I deserve nice things. But I can't afford them. So I relax and treat myself with things that are free or almost free.

Barbara

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 1:37 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I went to public school and never heard the phrase "felt up/felt down."

In fact, I just tried to google it. Result 1 was from daniellesteele.net, about a TSA search. Result 2 is this thread. I suspect that it was local slang that came and went quickly.

granolamom

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 1:41 pm

amother wrote:

I get what you're all saying and I was bit a bit facetious with my list of 'priorities'. and really, saving $5000 per week on cleaning help isnt going to pay your tuition around here. so I take issue with those who say that ppl who have some cleaning help dont prioritize tuition. its a bit ridiculous.
my teenage dd is in her dual-curriculum school until close to 6 pm. she is not available to help at home at that point, what with homework and all.
I actually do homeschool some of my children and keep most of them home from camp and that helps us to afford the tuitions for the children who need it.
what irks me, and maybe I just dont know how to put it into words so I will stop trying after this, is that people get so judgemental about other people's 'priorities' not knowing the other persons struggles or life. for example, when I was pp and severely depressed, my weekly manicures with a friend was my lifeline. cheaper and more effective than a therapist. is that a splurge? I dont know how to wash my wig, so I only wear it on shabbos and tichels the rest of the week, but would I say that no one should wear a wig daily if they dont wash it themselves if they also say tuition costs are killing them? not really, some people have a greater need to look good than I do, just because I dont understand it doesnt mean I can judge it. I know people judge my staying home, but I prioritize my childrens and my emotional wellbeing over yeshiva tuition. I know my limits and I know that if I worked to send every penny to the yeshiva I will fall apart. if another woman chooses that, all the power to her. I'm just tired of all the judgement, and unless I am in a place where I am seriously considering PS, I will not judge that either.

saw50st8

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 2:10 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Granolamom Applause

You should not feel the need to justify your budget. Especially to amothers. And people should not judge, because they simply don't know.

This is a discussion. She doesn't have to justify it to anyone, but most emotionally healthy people don't need weekly manicures to do so. In her case, it may have been essential.

The point is, many people confuse need and want and aren't willing to sacrifice wants for tuition. That's their choice, but at least they shouldn't profess that yeshiva is THE most important thing. (not talking about granolamom, just to be clear, this is a general statement) Tuition may come lower down like owning a home or having cleaning help. People should at least own up to their philosophy!

farm

Tue, Jul 08 2014, 2:34 pm

amother wrote:

If the parents are being nickeled and dimed for tuition, giving up every single thing that can be construed as luxury, then the same should be expected from the schools.

A school I know (a very large one) sent out a fundraising brochure boasting that they had hired a financial expert who helped them save $1 million a year, presumably by finding cheaper options for things they were already doing, minimizing interest etc.

I was NOT impressed. I was horrified! Do you know how the parents suffered to make that MILLION DOLLARS in school tuitions, and they weren't responsible enough to do any kind of audit until this year?

Granted their budget is in the high millions, but don't they CARE that their tuition is as high as it is, with the parents as pressed as they are, and their blood money is being WASTED?

When the schools demonstrate some Mesiras Nefesh, they then have the right to expect it from the parents.

I think the tone of this post is pretty obnoxious, but I do wish there was a good answer to the overall idea. If Yeshivos operate as for profit/offered stock/business investment opportunities, a lot would be different. More transparacy, emphasis on cost savings and being profitable, etc. Maybe somehow this can be part of an overhall of the system in an attempt to solve the tuition crisis in the USA?