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Inappropriate parts: Gr8 book. Spinoff Harry Potter thread
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amother
Gray


 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 8:22 am
marina wrote:
I had my kids in a school like this and then I took them out. In part for this reason. I completely disagree with censoring. It makes me feel like I'm living in North Korea. If a book is too mature for a child, I just don't get it from the library, the end. If the book is generally okay or if the literary value outweighs any issues, then I give them the entire book and I'm pretty sure they won't fall apart when reading about snogging.

I remember my daughter's 4th grade class were reading some book about mice. And two mice met each other and became engaged. This was a relatively minor part of the story, but important, b/c one of the mice got eaten by an owl immediately and the fiance mouse had to grieve etc. But they just blacked out entire paragraphs so that no one could possibly think that two mice met and fell in love and got engaged. I guess it would have been okay with a shadchan mouse, but the author didn't include that.


Marina, I'm the poster you responded to, about Green Eggs and Beef. I don't agree with the censoring, and my children are aware of how I feel. But I'm not pulling them out of school, because they are happy and successful where they are and I don't want to disrupt them that way. They know that I agree with many of their school's policies, and disagree with some.

I don't censor books at home either, I just don't buy or borrow ones that are inappropriate for my kids.

For what it's worth, my middle schooler tells me that many of her friends also are amused by the censoring. She recently completed a report on Ireland for history class using school-provided reference books. School policy mandates removal from textbooks of all references to non-Jewish religions, so the books my daughter used had lots of Sharpie.

I suppose that the school policy is intended to accommodate those parents who'd prefer that their children's delicate religious sensibilities not be damaged by the knowledge that Ireland is a Catholic country. I am not one of those parents, and I did explain to my daughter that religion affected Ireland's culture and history in very significant ways.

Continuing to post as amother because of lots of identifying details in this thread.
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Teacher_EW




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 8:53 am
My mother always read and censored my books before I read them, and as a whole, I appreciated it. My options were to not read the books I wanted to, or read my mother's censored version. Also, until I was about sixteen, I only thought there were 4 books in the Harry Potter series! When I found out there were more, and asked my mother to get them for me, she said that they weren't appropriate while I was in school, but I could read them after I graduated. I was ok with that. I guess it's because all of my books were censored at a young age, so I just got used to it.

For age appropriate Sci Fi that doesn't really need censoring (I think) try the Charlie Bone series by Jenny Nimmo, and Molly Moon series by Georgia Byng. I loved those as a kid!
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 9:34 am
I also wouldn't pull out just for censoring if my child was generally happy and learning. But there were other problems- censoring was just a part of the overall school.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 9:44 am
My kids are all in their late teens/earliest possible 20s, so I'm not really in the censorship business any longer, but this was a huge issue for me when they were growing up and caused no small amount of disagreement between me and DH, I'll admit.

For those who don't know me, either IRL or on Imamother, I live in what I would describe as a RW-ish kehilla. In practical terms, for example, college is discouraged but certainly not forbidden, and while most people would never bring People Magazine into their homes, they would read it on the DL at the obstetrician's office.

To me, the biggest question we have to ask ourselves is WHY we want to censor or exclude a certain book and what our kids REALLY hear when we do so.

Sometimes, we censor/exclude something because the themes or imagery are just too intense for a particular child given his age or temperment. For example, I used to read aloud various "classics" to my kids, and I would occasionally edit as I read. I remember, in particular, doing some creative rewriting of the cave scene in Tom Sawyer. I had one child in particular who would have been frightened to death!

But what about censoring/excluding things because they don't reflect our values or lifestyle?

I have a harder time with that, because I think kids often HEAR a very different message than we intend. *We* believe we're saying, "I don't want you to have images in your head or be influenced by values antithetical to Torah."

But kids often hear, "Torah life is not strong enough to overcome non-Torah ideas, and that's why we have to stay away from them." That, IMHO, is an unintended message that is far, far more dangerous than any scenes involving a well-turned ankle.

I'm not suggesting that we deliberating or unthinkingly expose kids to images or ideas simply to prove that we're unafraid of them, but I likewise don't think it strengthens anyone's yiras Shemayim to pretend that ham doesn't exist.

In practical terms with my kids, I preferred to direct the conversation and focus rather than censor/exclude. For example, my kids all loved Harry Potter, but anyone old enough to slog (not snog!) through an 800-page book is old enough to discuss whether he agrees with the thesis that the books are an allegory of Britain's experience in WWII or whether some of the details are borrowed from Torah sources.

Sometimes I find myself wishing my kids were a bit less worldly, but then I see ample evidence that things are a little more complicated than that.

I recently joined Instagram at my DDs' behest, following Only Simchas and Simcha Spot. I am daily amazed by engagement and chassanah pictures in which fully-covered kallahs from WB are posed provocatively next to their shtreimel-wearing chossons from BP, while newly-engaged kallahs from Cherry Hill, equally or slightly-less covered, stand next to their chossons in plaid shirts, slightly touching perhaps, but without the come-hither look and blatant s-xuality.

This is anecdotal, of course. I fully realize that you can live in an insular community without absorbing its values, and you can engage extensively with the secular world without turning into someone who suggests the caption, "Hey, Sailor!" Social media, too, self-selects to some degree. But IMHO, protecting our kids from the existence of snogging and ham has much less of an effect than we would like.
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amother
Mint


 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 10:45 am
From my own experiences of reading more mature books way over my chronologically appropriate stage of life, the inappropriate stuff flew right over my head and I enjoyed the stories. My oldest started with the Harry Potter series at age 9 and now continues to read them again and again a year later. He taught his siblings all of the cool spells to use when they play pirates and doesn't give the romance a second thought. Why call attention to it by censorship?
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 10:49 am
I don't believe in censorship as a rule. I would much prefer my kids are exposed to something "inappropriate" at home, so they can ask or talk to me about it, than via some macher in school. That being said, I was forced to take a marker to my big one's book about the New York Yankees when he used a really nasty word he had read in it without knowing it's a curse word. Now he knows not to use a word without finding out what is means first!
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chanie18




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 11:04 am
If I was going to censor "green eggs and ham" I would read it all except the last line. If I recall, he says "I would not could not..." until the last line right? So perfect message, I will not eat treif no matter what, not if you peer pressure me, not if you tempt me...even if it looks good... stand up for what you believe in! What a perfect book for frum society! Just cut out the last page and you're good!
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 12:06 pm
amother wrote:
I suppose that the school policy is intended to accommodate those parents who'd prefer that their children's delicate religious sensibilities not be damaged by the knowledge that Ireland is a Catholic country.

Serious question - wouldn't those parents just not enroll their kids in history? Human history everywhere is full of violence, s-x, and religions that aren't Judaism. Even the Tanach has plenty of all of those things.

Ditto with the AP history class example you gave earlier. Who are these people who want their kids to be in AP history, but would be offended if they learned about significant historical events? Either it's important to know history, or it isn't.

I'm not trying to bash their mindset (for now), just to understand why they don't see this as a contradiction.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 12:35 pm
ora_43 wrote:
I'm not trying to bash their mindset (for now), just to understand why they don't see this as a contradiction.


My guess is that they want to have their cake and eat it, too: they want the cachet of offering rigorous, college-prep classes while simultaneously maintaining a RW reputation.

Truthfully, I find such equivocation more distasteful than either saying, "We're not going to censor or withhold anything" or "We're going to exclude anything that might be the slightest bit problematic."

That's also why I hate marking out parts of books. If you think a book has value despite certain potential issues, then read it and discuss it. If you don't, then simply don't read it.

It's one thing to make judgment calls that others might disagree with; it's another to be a coward.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 2:27 pm
amother wrote:
From my own experiences of reading more mature books way over my chronologically appropriate stage of life, the inappropriate stuff flew right over my head and I enjoyed the stories. My oldest started with the Harry Potter series at age 9 and now continues to read them again and again a year later. He taught his siblings all of the cool spells to use when they play pirates and doesn't give the romance a second thought. Why call attention to it by censorship?

My father had a huge library of secular books (perhaps 2k) and we were allowed to take what we wanted from the shelves. My father was always sure to open convos with us about the books while we were reading them, or once finished. At about the age of 7 I grabbed a book, The Kinsey Report, off the shelf. Daddy found me in my favorite reading spot opening it to begin my read. He told me that likely I wouldn't understand a darn thing in the book but told me to read the introduction and get back to him. By page two of the into I was clueless as to what the book was about and picked up Hemingway's 'The Old Man and the Sea'. Sometimes it's just that simple.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 2:51 pm
Fox wrote:

I recently joined Instagram at my DDs' behest, following Only Simchas and Simcha Spot. I am daily amazed by engagement and chassanah pictures in which fully-covered kallahs from WB are posed provocatively next to their shtreimel-wearing chossons from BP, while newly-engaged kallahs from Cherry Hill, equally or slightly-less covered, stand next to their chossons in plaid shirts, slightly touching perhaps, but without the come-hither look and blatant s-xuality.



Fox, I've been finding myself agreeing with many of your posts.

I just want to point out something. (I am not chassidish but am familiar with the mindset.)

I would venture to guess that the "come hither" look you were observing was unintentional. Remember, most of these girls are really innocent and inexperienced in the nuances of flirting.

Also, you compared the pictures of the kallah with her chosson wearing a streimel - clearly this is a wedding picture - vs the cherry hill couple with the guy in plaid which is probably an engagement picture. The chosson/kallah picture was most likely posed at the direction of a photographer. Unless otherwise instructed, the photographer (especially the more "artsy" ones) have some poses that are quite intimate and when one is following orders (ok, put your hand on his shoulder, ok lean in, no closer, now smile, etc) one doesn't always think and say "hey, is this really what I want everyone to see?" Also, if you've never touched a guy before then ANY touch is already pushing boundaries, it's hard to differentiate.

Also there's an inyan for the chosson to hold the kallahs hand (this I don't know the reason for, does anyone?)

FWIW, I would venture to guess that the engagement picture of those couples had the appropriate distance between them.

Can someone chassidish please verify that what I wrote is true?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 3:14 pm
cbsp wrote:
I would venture to guess that the "come hither" look you were observing was unintentional. Remember, most of these girls are really innocent and inexperienced in the nuances of flirting.


I agree, and I don't want to read too much into pictures that are basically posted on social media by teenagers.

My real point was that exposure or lack thereof to non-Torah ideas doesn't necessarily correlate to the kind of temimasdikness (now *there's* a word beyond the limits of spell-check!) that we want for our kids.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 5:33 pm
Fox wrote:
I

temimasdikness (now *there's* a word beyond the limits of spell-check!) that we want for our kids.


Try temimus, she says helpfully.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 5:56 pm
many people, I think, like the idea of an education. But when it comes to it- they don't really like education all that much. The entire point of an education is to teach you about other people and their experiences and to move you out of your little daled amos- to unshelter you.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 6:03 pm
cbsp wrote:
Fox, I've been finding myself agreeing with many of your posts.

I just want to point out something. (I am not chassidish but am familiar with the mindset.)

I would venture to guess that the "come hither" look you were observing was unintentional. Remember, most of these girls are really innocent and inexperienced in the nuances of flirting.

Also, you compared the pictures of the kallah with her chosson wearing a streimel - clearly this is a wedding picture - vs the cherry hill couple with the guy in plaid which is probably an engagement picture. The chosson/kallah picture was most likely posed at the direction of a photographer. Unless otherwise instructed, the photographer (especially the more "artsy" ones) have some poses that are quite intimate and when one is following orders (ok, put your hand on his shoulder, ok lean in, no closer, now smile, etc) one doesn't always think and say "hey, is this really what I want everyone to see?" Also, if you've never touched a guy before then ANY touch is already pushing boundaries, it's hard to differentiate.

Also there's an inyan for the chosson to hold the kallahs hand (this I don't know the reason for, does anyone?)

FWIW, I would venture to guess that the engagement picture of those couples had the appropriate distance between them.

Can someone chassidish please verify that what I wrote is true?


For the average regular kids it certainly is true. They follow photographers' orders and don't even understand the message visible in the final image.

I would also imagine that many of the posted pictures are from kids who are less innocent than average. They think it's cool or whatever. Perhaps modern chassidish?

I have also known some kallas who were horrified to find their own pictures posted by others, sometimes poses that were meant to be private. Some prefer not to post photos at all and find themselves on there nevertheless.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 6:13 pm
marina wrote:
many people, I think, like the idea of an education. But when it comes to it- they don't really like education all that much. The entire point of an education is to teach you about other people and their experiences and to move you out of your little daled amos- to unshelter you.


Interesting point. Should be in the other thread, I think...

How can you hope to get a community that values insularity to agree to an education (or accept a decree to educate their children) if you state the destruction of their values as a goal of education? You need to try to prove the opposite.

I don't agree that the important part of an education is to "unshelter". Often education is not about subjective observations of individuals, but objective facts... like math and language skills.

To use an example from earlier in this thread, of course you can teach nice Jewish kids about the Crusades, and even Martin Luther, without "corrupting" them by delving into the theological details. Those are objective facts, not people's viewpoints and experiences.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 6:40 pm
youngishbear wrote:
Interesting point. Should be in the other thread, I think...

How can you hope to get a community that values insularity to agree to an education (or accept a decree to educate their children) if you state the destruction of their values as a goal of education? You need to try to prove the opposite.

I don't agree that the important part of an education is to "unshelter". Often education is not about subjective observations of individuals, but objective facts... like math and language skills.

To use an example from earlier in this thread, of course you can teach nice Jewish kids about the Crusades, and even Martin Luther, without "corrupting" them by delving into the theological details. Those are objective facts, not people's viewpoints and experiences.


Every part of education tries to expose you to new things. Crusades. Lutheranism. The pythagorean theorem. If you don't want to be exposed to new things and you are happy the way you are, ok, then why are you going to seek an education?

I guess your point stands about multiplication tables and phonics.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 26 2015, 8:42 pm
marina wrote:
Every part of education tries to expose you to new things. Crusades. Lutheranism. The pythagorean theorem. If you don't want to be exposed to new things and you are happy the way you are, ok, then why are you going to seek an education?

I guess your point stands about multiplication tables and phonics.


Yes, I believe a focus on math and language skills should be the first step in education reform. These are the real tools our children need to succeed in life. Content (science and history) is easily forgotten, but with good comprehension skills any textbook is open to the willing student, and much of it can be self-taught.

The goals of education should be to teach a child how to learn, and to inspire them to want to learn, not only to stuff information down their throats.

So while some of the content will be found objectionable by the powers-that-be in certain communities, and by individual mothers - as this thread testifies - the gifts of reading, writing, verbal fluency, and computation skills should be granted to every child.

I believe schools can be easily persuaded to see the truth in this, and forcing won't be necessary. They just need guidance that is respectful of their sensitivities.

(P.S. Isn't the point of the Common Core similar, to not enforce content standards but skills?)
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Mar 27 2015, 12:36 am
Fox wrote:
My guess is that they want to have their cake and eat it, too: they want the cachet of offering rigorous, college-prep classes while simultaneously maintaining a RW reputation.

Truthfully, I find such equivocation more distasteful than either saying, "We're not going to censor or withhold anything" or "We're going to exclude anything that might be the slightest bit problematic."

That's also why I hate marking out parts of books. If you think a book has value despite certain potential issues, then read it and discuss it. If you don't, then simply don't read it.

It's one thing to make judgment calls that others might disagree with; it's another to be a coward.

I can understand a certain amount of marking out. But taking historic events out of history, less so.

It's like, I can see taking the kissing scenes out of Harry Potter, but if someone wanted to take out all the parts about magic, I'd find it... surprising.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Mar 27 2015, 5:36 am
MagentaYenta wrote:
My father had a huge library of secular books (perhaps 2k) and we were allowed to take what we wanted from the shelves. My father was always sure to open convos with us about the books while we were reading them, or once finished. At about the age of 7 I grabbed a book, The Kinsey Report, off the shelf. Daddy found me in my favorite reading spot opening it to begin my read. He told me that likely I wouldn't understand a darn thing in the book but told me to read the introduction and get back to him. By page two of the into I was clueless as to what the book was about and picked up Hemingway's 'The Old Man and the Sea'. Sometimes it's just that simple.


Sounds like you had an interesting upbringing Tongue Out
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