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Not getting help doesn't make you a better person
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 9:47 am
I just want to start by saying that I am completely APPALLED by the attitude expressed by the OP of the 2 FIL threads. The level of entitlement expressed there is sickening. However, whenever any kind of thread regarding support comes up, there are always some posters who talk about how they're oh-so-special because they never got a red cent for anything starting midnight of their 18th birthday. Some have even gone so far as to say that posters who are self-supporting but had their education paid for by parents didn't "really" make it on their own, and they say it like there's something wrong with the fact that they got that leg up.

You know what? You're NOT better for having done it on your own. I agree, no one is entitled to anything. But Hashem runs the world, and some people get things that others don't. Some people are supported fully in lavish lifestyles, some are supported fully in simple lifestyles, some are partially supported, some in non-financial ways, some not at all. Hashem decides what family you will be born into, and some luck out more than others, same way some people luck out on the job front or in terms of children.

I myself fall somewhere in the middle. Both me and DH had our educations paid for by savings accounts that were started when we were born for just that purpose. We got full support for about a year and a half, till we were both out of school. We never asked for nor expected that, and in fact, had a plan for how to do it ourselves. We were incredibly grateful for the help we got, and the day we told our families we didn't need it anymore, we had to argue with them to stop because they wanted to keep helping. We were self-supporting for awhile then I got laid off. It took me 9 months to find another job. The first 3 months, we did not take any help at all, and planned to continue that way, but my MIL just couldn't bear to see us under so much stress and insisted on helping till I found something. We are so grateful, because my job search did end up taking longer than expected, but we were thrilled to tell her when we were back on our feet (again, she argued she wanted to keep helping). We are saving for a house and would never dream of asking for help, but if it is offered, we will probably accept. We hope we can help our children in the same way when the time comes- education, support when they need it so long as there's a reasonable life plan. So, Hashem has blessed us with some advantages, does not make us spoiled nor does it mean we don't work hard- believe me, we bust our behinds to support ourselves and put away for the future, and we don't consider our families as Plan B (more like Plan Z).

Lastly, the attitude expressed by some of these "bootstrappers" really smacks on "kochi v'etzem yadi". Sorry, nobody truly does it on their own. Everyone was helped along the way. Most people who paid their own way for college took advantage of federal loans at low interest rates; plenty of homeowners have availed themselves of FHA and continue to get a nice tax credit that we renters don't get. There is nothing wrong with that, these programs are there to be used and there's nothing wrong with using them. And if your parents willingly assisted you in some things, that's ok too- many parents, not just frum ones, choose to do that, and it is not wrong to accept. If you got four weeks of meals after having a baby, again, wonderful and gezinter heit. We ALL live in "the village" and if you haven't been helped by them until now, you probably will be in the future for one reason or another. Lastly, even if you really truly think you have never ever gotten anything from anybody, there is still Someone who did and still does help you in everything you do. HKBH is the source of all our successes, whether we had a leg up or not, and one must never forget that. Sorry for the length of this, just needed to get that off my chest.
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syrima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 9:53 am
Agree - parents can be a shaliach of Hashem to give you the money you need, or he can give it to you directly.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 10:24 am
The bottom line is, Hashem presents us with opportunities to build our character and middos. For some, this might be no financial help, hard work, etc....for others, they have challenges within the cocoon of a warm family with plenty of support.

Who is to say that one person has worked on him/herself more than another? Only Hashem knows.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 10:25 am
I find your post interesting, I for myself had to take loans, federal aid etc. as none of our parents can give us a penny, never have and from the looks of things, never will.
I think anyone who gets supported in any way can in no way compare to people that never get a penny. I'm not bitter or jealous of others, just it can be really really tough when there is no one to fall back on even on an extreme emergency, which we have had.
Everyone is born into their situation, true but there's no way to compare being supported to doing on your own.
I for one have gotten aid and loans for school, worked full time during school, was on food stamps, which despite my extremely frugal, stingy budget didn't make it, I have had to accept shabbos packages and have had many many times that I couldn't buy a bottle of milk or loaf of bread.
While I personally wouldn't want to be supported as I'd feel shackled, I do wish in times of crisis I had somewhere, someone who would step in, I really hope I can do that for my kids someday.

Had a busy week, didn't read any FIL threads
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 10:42 am
Besides, mazal also plays a big factor. I know people who "made it" by falling into the right job at the right time, and people who failed despite having PhDs, because their field folded just as they came in.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:36 am
Reading your post made me just as angry (granted it's an overreaction and I'm working on that) as when kids in high school would say "I'm not rich my parents are". Do you look at Samalians and say "OK so he's malnourished and his belly is oddly big, but I have problems too!!!"

Guess what, when my DH and I had no money because I was in school there was no one to give us a penny and it had detrimental affects on both our psyches and family. We got evicted, had to move into a one bedroom which we shared with my elderly parents and their home health aids, had to sleep on the floor of a hallway for a year, with a child, till I finished school and got a job. Can you just imagine living like that?

No one INSISTED on helping us and the few people we asked, including family, flat our refused... and we weren't even asking for handouts mind you, we were asking for loans and at one point all we asked for was a cosignature on a loan and even that our families couldn't help us with. Can you just imagine the humiliation of begging for help, while you're being evicted by frum landlords in your community, and being refused over and over again by close family and community?


Do you think your family would ever let you put a child into public school because you couldn't make the tuition payments, can you imagine having to make a choice like that?

B"H both DH and I have good jobs now and I pray that my children, or anyone else's children for that matter, never have to face what we did.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:58 am
I have utmost respect for people who are, and always were, fully self-supported. I would never in a million years trade places with them, but I do believe that it's more respectable. I feel incredibly blessed that we don't have to struggle monetarily, through mazel (and family support) but I do think that doing it on your own makes you stronger and, might I say, a better person?

You op would never choose to be in their position where every purchase, including bare necessity groceries, is a calculation. You knew as a baby that no one was going into debt to pay for your schooling. It's a totally different mindset and to say 'you are not better because you struggle' is to tell them that the fact that they overcame their difficult challenge was stupid.
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boysrus




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:06 pm
amother wrote:
Reading your post made me just as angry (granted it's an overreaction and I'm working on that) as when kids in high school would say "I'm not rich my parents are". Do you look at Samalians and say "OK so he's malnourished and his belly is oddly big, but I have problems too!!!"

Guess what, when my DH and I had no money because I was in school there was no one to give us a penny and it had detrimental affects on both our psyches and family. We got evicted, had to move into a one bedroom which we shared with my elderly parents and their home health aids, had to sleep on the floor of a hallway for a year, with a child, till I finished school and got a job. Can you just imagine living like that?

No one INSISTED on helping us and the few people we asked, including family, flat our refused... and we weren't even asking for handouts mind you, we were asking for loans and at one point all we asked for was a cosignature on a loan and even that our families couldn't help us with. Can you just imagine the humiliation of begging for help, while you're being evicted by frum landlords in your community, and being refused over and over again by close family and community?


Do you think your family would ever let you put a child into public school because you couldn't make the tuition payments, can you imagine having to make a choice like that?

B"H both DH and I have good jobs now and I pray that my children, or anyone else's children for that matter, never have to face what we did.


It sounds like you have been through some very hard times. I agree that poverty can definitely have detrimental effects on people and their marriage and kids. I am sad to hear that nobody was able to help you with rent, even any Jewish organistation?
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:08 pm
Do you think a blind person who rises through her disability to great achievement is better then her friend who did the same without being blind? Or a kid from a single parent home in Bed-Stuy who goes on to become a lawyer or doctor is better then then the kid from a middle class home who did the same?

You might indeed be a wonderful person in many ways, but yes, a person who gets no parental support and makes it financially has my admiration and respect.
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smiledr




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:23 pm
Ops post could only have been written by someone such as herself who had money being thrown at her. You are very naive to think that just because everyone has their challenges it's no big deal to have to do things on ur own - clearly u never did anything on your own - your parents are always there to bail you out.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:32 pm
I come from a poor family, but DH's family is more *comfortable*. I got academic scholarships to pay for my education, and his parents paid for his. Between savings and some parental help, we scavenged together a down payment on a small house in awful condition.
I'm so grateful to all involved that we were able to begin our married life debt free. It's a gift I'd love to be able to give my children.

And those that paid for their own educations and didn't have any parental assistance as adults? I think they're better people than me, and I respect them ALOT. I can't imagine starting an imamother thread to argue otherwise.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:36 pm
All these money threads make me think I'm so lucky, to be financially independent, not in conflict with either set of parents about money. So privileged. I should be so grateful I don't have such problems.

Except we have our own problems, my landing in ICU twice this year, being in a wheelchair for 3 months, and battling PIF, and insecure jobs, and legal problems. We all have our tzurus. We don't get any help with ours either, we just have to handle it ourselves, it's called being an adult and dealing with life.

Ever gone to the mikva in a wheelchair? I don't wish it on you Crying
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black sheep




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:45 pm
Actually, yes, not getting help DOES make you a better person.

In fact I know quite a few wealthy people who do not give their adult children money specifically for this reason, they want their kids to learn to make it on their own. Because that makes them better people.

OP, you are lucky to have support to fall back on whenever you needed it. But on the other hand, maybe you would have been luckier if you didn't. At least then you might know the difference, and know to give credit where it is due.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:21 pm
Most certainly not better. Stronger? possibly. Tougher? yea- is it good?

Helping kids who do their own effort is different from fully supporting two lazy @sses...
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:26 pm
black sheep wrote:
Actually, yes, not getting help DOES make you a better person.

In fact I know quite a few wealthy people who do not give their adult children money specifically for this reason, they want their kids to learn to make it on their own. Because that makes them better people.

OP, you are lucky to have support to fall back on whenever you needed it. But on the other hand, maybe you would have been luckier if you didn't. At least then you might know the difference, and know to give credit where it is due.


No, all it does is make you better regarding certain middos- work ethic, gratitude, humility, for example. Except that there are people who have everything handed to them who have all that (well, maybe not work ethic). I know someone who married well, a "kept woman" as they say. ILs paid for 900K home, they pay for full-time help even though she's a SAHM, husband works for family business (and frankly, he's the type of guy who would probably have trouble holding down a job if he didn't have dad to create one for him and let him do what he wants). She is one of the LEAST spoiled/entitled people I know, and is incredibly humble and gracious, and does tremendous chesed. I know someone who does it all herself and while I admire her work ethic and her professional accomplishments, she is always griping about the lady in the checkout line who pulled her food stamp card out of a Coach purse, and this family that went to Splish Splash on Sunday even though they get a tuition break, and she really has no concept of ayin tovah. It can be a little irritating, and I'm not so sure she's a "better person" than my other friend (though again, she certainly is a wonderful person). Overcoming adversity is not what makes one better. Oscar Pistorius overcame tremendous adversity and has accomplishments that on the face of it, overshadow those of runners that possess legs. But he is not a better person than any of them; in fact, he's a lousy piece of scum who murdered his girlfriend.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:38 pm
black sheep wrote:
Actually, yes, not getting help DOES make you a better person.

In fact I know quite a few wealthy people who do not give their adult children money specifically for this reason, they want their kids to learn to make it on their own. Because that makes them better people.

OP, you are lucky to have support to fall back on whenever you needed it. But on the other hand, maybe you would have been luckier if you didn't. At least then you might know the difference, and know to give credit where it is due.



The OP of the original thread was obnoxiously entitled.

With that said: Getting help from our parents, the first time since college for both of us, when I was out of a job for a long stretch did, in fact, keep us from being homeless. Asking for help, at 45, was one of the most humiliating things I have ever done. Does this exclude me from being a "better" person?
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doughnut




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:39 pm
I think you can phrase it differently.

Not getting help may not necessarily make you a better person.

But setting yourself up in life to be able to self-support does, I believe, make you a better person.

At least then you won't be furious if money doesn't fall from heaven or FIL. You'll just get working.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:46 pm
Raisin wrote:
Do you think a blind person who rises through her disability to great achievement is better then her friend who did the same without being blind? Or a kid from a single parent home in Bed-Stuy who goes on to become a lawyer or doctor is better then then the kid from a middle class home who did the same?

You might indeed be a wonderful person in many ways, but yes, a person who gets no parental support and makes it financially has my admiration and respect.


I'm with amother 1:26.
I'm not sure what you mean. You end off by saying that such a person has your admiration and respect, but that's not the question. The question is, does it make her a better person? Who can judge? I guess if all things are exactly equal, sure, but I don't expect or want to know that in this world. Nor do I expect to have to make that judgment call of who exactly is the better person.

I think we can all agree that someone with a sense of entitlement needs to work on her middos but people who graciously accept help IF offered freely? I don't know that they're going to lose points on their celestial scorecards. OTOH, people who judge them and act on that judgment just might.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:48 pm
doughnut wrote:
I think you can phrase it differently.

Not getting help may not necessarily make you a better person.

But setting yourself up in life to be able to self-support does, I believe, make you a better person.

At least then you won't be furious if money doesn't fall from heaven or FIL. You'll just get working.


If you are able to set yourself up in life, then you are plain lucky.

A. You have the right brains
B. You went to the right schools
C. You got the right jobs
D. You have the right dh (who doesn't have medical needs)
E. You have the right kids (who don't have medical needs)
F. You are incredibly organized bc you are blessed with the right personality
G. You have the right parents and in-laws who are not asking you for money
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:50 pm
Could we have an entire sub-forum devoted to this subject? There aren't enough threads about it already.
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