Not getting help doesn't make you a better person

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:51 pm

amother wrote:

Reading your post made me just as angry (granted it's an overreaction and I'm working on that) as when kids in high school would say "I'm not rich my parents are". Do you look at Samalians and say "OK so he's malnourished and his belly is oddly big, but I have problems too!!!"

Guess what, when my DH and I had no money because I was in school there was no one to give us a penny and it had detrimental affects on both our psyches and family. We got evicted, had to move into a one bedroom which we shared with my elderly parents and their home health aids, had to sleep on the floor of a hallway for a year, with a child, till I finished school and got a job. Can you just imagine living like that?

No one INSISTED on helping us and the few people we asked, including family, flat our refused... and we weren't even asking for handouts mind you, we were asking for loans and at one point all we asked for was a cosignature on a loan and even that our families couldn't help us with. Can you just imagine the humiliation of begging for help, while you're being evicted by frum landlords in your community, and being refused over and over again by close family and community?

Do you think your family would ever let you put a child into public school because you couldn't make the tuition payments, can you imagine having to make a choice like that?

B"H both DH and I have good jobs now and I pray that my children, or anyone else's children for that matter, never have to face what we did.

I agree.

I am a big believer in giving money to family.

doughnut

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:52 pm

amother wrote:

If you are able to set yourself up in life, then you are plain lucky.

A. You have the right brains
B. You went to the right schools
C. You got the right jobs
D. You have the right dh (who doesn't have medical needs)
E. You have the right kids (who don't have medical needs)
F. You are incredibly organized bc you are blessed with the right personality
G. You have the right parents and in-laws who are not asking you for money

I agree with all of that wholeheartedly. Just because you set yourself up to stand on your own, doesn't mean you will. That's where mazal and all that comes in. But being a victim of circumstances and not making an effort are different things.

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:56 pm

amother wrote:

No, all it does is make you better regarding certain middos- work ethic, gratitude, humility, for example. Except that there are people who have everything handed to them who have all that (well, maybe not work ethic). I know someone who married well, a "kept woman" as they say. ILs paid for 900K home, they pay for full-time help even though she's a SAHM, husband works for family business (and frankly, he's the type of guy who would probably have trouble holding down a job if he didn't have dad to create one for him and let him do what he wants). She is one of the LEAST spoiled/entitled people I know, and is incredibly humble and gracious, and does tremendous chesed. I know someone who does it all herself and while I admire her work ethic and her professional accomplishments, she is always griping about the lady in the checkout line who pulled her food stamp card out of a Coach purse, and this family that went to Splish Splash on Sunday even though they get a tuition break, and she really has no concept of ayin tovah. It can be a little irritating, and I'm not so sure she's a "better person" than my other friend (though again, she certainly is a wonderful person). Overcoming adversity is not what makes one better. Oscar Pistorius overcame tremendous adversity and has accomplishments that on the face of it, overshadow those of runners that possess legs. But he is not a better person than any of them; in fact, he's a lousy piece of scum who murdered his girlfriend.

How do you know how this wonderful
Friend of yours would react if she didn't have every one of her whims catered to? And the very fact that her husband possibly wouldn't hold down a job had he not worked for his dad where he can do whatever he wants also says something about what being spoiled does to you.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 2:05 pm

amother wrote:

You have a point about the husband. if that's true I feel sad for them. But it sounds like you'rebent out of shape that she looks at a friend and her situation with an ayin tova. If this is the case, why?

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 2:09 pm

amother wrote:

I am the amother with this friend. First of all, she is not her husband. I do think her husband is a spoiled brat (though I would never say so aloud). And I truthfully don't know how my friend would react should it all disappear tomorrow, but she has dealt with IF and debilitating health issues and handled them with grace and always looking out for others even when she needed to take care of herself. So that gives me a clue as to how she might handle other nisyonos.

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 2:20 pm

boysrus wrote:

It sounds like you have been through some very hard times. I agree that poverty can definitely have detrimental effects on people and their marriage and kids. I am sad to hear that nobody was able to help you with rent, even any Jewish organistation?

the loans we took from the Jewish organizations, which weren't much, went to cover the portion of my tuition which federal and private loans couldn't cover. We've since paid back those loans but the loans I owe to banks and government I'll be paying off for many years to come. We are still bitter with the community for not helping us out more then. When ever I hear kiruv rabbis or even non Jews talk about how warm our communities are and how we take care of each other, or the strength of the Jewish family as opposed to the non Jewish once I really want to vomit. When we were desperate and in destitute we felt completely abandoned and rejected.

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 2:43 pm

I find the topic interesting because I came in with significant "family money", my husband did not. Lets just say he is by far the more competent of the two of us, more capable to hold down a job etc... he told me he doesn't have anyone to fall back on ( talking humans, yes everything is from Hashem) so he has to try to succeed. We hope to raise our kids with more of his mindset then mine though we do hope to give each a sum of money to "help out" and have already starting saving for them.

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 3:13 pm

This thread reminds me of people from wealthy families who say, "I am successful in spite of my wealthy parents, not because of them." (Yes I have heard many people say this.) oh please. Even if you are working and supporting yourselves- who supported you through college? Who got you that first amazing job using their connections? Who helps you out whenever you fall upon rough times? I don't think people from this lifestyle can ever understand what it means to be totally 100% self sufficient. However I don't think people who don't get help are necessarily BETTER, just different, like any other struggle in life.

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 4:10 pm

amother wrote:

I'm the amother who slept on the floor of my parents 1 bedroom witch my child and husband.

I just want to clarify, I don't think people who come from nothing are in any way better. I do KNOW that when someone who comes from money makes comments like "my parents are rich not me" or "I'm successful despite my parents money not because" it is extremely hurtful to us. For many reasons.

Willow43

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 4:18 pm

smiledr wrote:

Ops post could only have been written by someone such as herself who had money being thrown at her. You are very naive to think that just because everyone has their challenges it's no big deal to have to do things on ur own - clearly u never did anything on your own - your parents are always there to bail you out.

This. While "being better than" someone who was supported is the wrong choice of words, there is no feeling like doing it on your own, versus being supported, helped, put through school etc.
If you felt that way when reading the other posts, maybe you have an insecurity or something, I dont know.
But yes, your post could only have been written by someone like you, who never had to struggle.
Although you are very lucky (and you seem to realize it, good for you!) You will never been in the same category as someone who did it on their own... sorry.

The people who DID do it on their own, were self supporting, put themselves through school and college etc, whether by choice or by the fact that they had no one to help them, may not be "better" than you, but definately get more respect for getting through their struggles than people like you. At least in my book.

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 4:27 pm

amother wrote:

This reminds me of my friends and relatives who walk around saying they bought their houses on their own, with wedding money, saving from when they were younger etc.
The only reason they got to save their money to by their house is because they didnt use it to LIVE! Their parents supported them so much and gave them everything for so long that when it came to buying their house, they still had ALL their savings.
Sure you didnt get help for your house. LOL

ora_43

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 4:44 pm

Willow43 wrote:

But yes, your post could only have been written by someone like you, who never had to struggle.

I totally disagree. IMHO (and IME), there's nothing like struggling in a low-wage, dead-end job to make a person realize, "Well this is pointless. It would be a lot more efficient if someone with lots of money could just loan me some so I could get qualified for a better job."

Maybe someone who struggles and is successful at reaching their goals anyway would feel, later, that the struggle made success extra meaningful. But don't forget that there are many, many people who struggle and are not able to break the cycle of poverty without help.

I also think "not getting help" and struggling are two different things. As amother above me points out, a lot of "not getting help" is made possible by getting significant amounts of help earlier in life. And I don't mean just financial; being given a good education counts too. IOW, there's no financial help, but there may not have been a struggle - just a smooth transition into a decently well-paid career.

And then on the other hand, you gave people who get significant help from family and are still constantly struggling financially.

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 6:26 pm

I think it all boils down to a sense of entitlement. So many women have become so USED to getting things, like manicures and help in the house and household items paid for and cars and vacations, that they don't realize that:

1). Not everyone gets these things.
2). The money spent on these things might be better spent on other things
3). There becomes a real insensitivity towards people who are financially struggling. Maybe your manicure money should go to tomchei Shabbos instead?

I'm someone who came from very little and married someone whose family has more. Growing up money was always really tight, and now it's a huge culture shock to be in a family where help and manicures and vacations are givens.

I read that huge thread about the wan putting her second grader in public school, and it tortures me that not one response was, "let's all pay for it!" Instead it devolved into arguing who's to blame and why doesn't she beg for more money from her community.

Our grandparents all lived a heck of a lot simpler than we did. And they were more generous than we are. I asked my husband if we could help this anonymous commenter with her tuition and met with pessimism on the whole. I mourn the fact that our grandparents would have been more helpful or less entitled about the situation. (Then again, the majority went to public school).

People that don't receive help and are struggling are exempt from feeling like they're mismanaging the funds they have. In this way they are better. I wonder if HaShem will ever do an accounting of my frivolous expenses and call me to task on them. I would fail horribly.

allrgymama

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 7:48 pm

amother wrote:

While I do agree with this a bit, please realize that if up one grows up in a family where all of their needs are taken care of and presumably will continue to be taken care of, it still takes self control and determination for these people to save their money.

I don't think that's something to laugh at.

allrgymama

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 8:01 pm

amother wrote:

Our grandparents all lived a heck of a lot simpler than we did. And they were more generous than we are. I asked my husband if we could help this anonymous commenter with her tuition and met with pessimism on the whole. I mourn the fact that our grandparents would have been more helpful or less entitled about the situation. (Then again, the majority went to public school).

People that don't receive help and are struggling are exempt from feeling like they're mismanaging the funds they have. In this way they are better. I wonder if HaShem will ever do an accounting of my frivolous expenses and call me to task on them. I would fail horribly.

So many things potentially wrong with this.

I realize that I'm taking this personally, but please do not make sweeping generalizations about two entire generations, especially without specifying which age bracket. My grandparents (mid-70's; I'm late 20's) did not go to public school, are not necessarily more generous with their time/money/efforts and do their fair share of mismanaging funds. They also do not stop talking about how superior they are to us because of their suffering. Let's just agree that my suffering is mine and yours is yours and it all comes from Hashem who judged for each of us the appropriate kind and amount of suffering we are to experience. It isn't a contest.

What makes you think that people who don't receive help and are still struggling don't feel that way? I lived hand-to-mouth for years 2-4 of my marriage (still do, sometimes, depending on the month) and trust me, I questioned every single penny that I spent as to whether I really needed to spend the money on that instead of this. Even if your statement were true, why does this make them 'better'?

Also, there is no reason why you should feel guilty about frivolous expenses; you are allowed to enjoy yourself and your life, (not only if) you have fulfilled your obligations to bills, tuitions, your community and maaser.

Frumdoc

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 8:21 pm

To my mind, there are two concepts behind not supporting adult children.

Firstly is that you should teach your children to be self sufficient, and able to cope independently, which is the final target of all parents, to see their children functioning as adults, and hopefully as parents, in the world.

Secondly, by giving them smaller challenges when they still have a safety net, such as partially funding a bris, or providing some of their kollel income (assuming you have the money to do so) but not so much that they are completely dependent, you enable them to grow the backbone and resilience to cope with more significant challenges when you are no longer there to be there for them.

Maybe there are other ways to enable your children to grow resilience and self reliance, but teaching them financial sense by limiting their handouts seems a sensible way of making this happen.

I am ever grateful for my parents doing this for me, and see all around me the results of people not having had this type of parenting, the longstanding inability to cope with the challenges of normal life, let alone when the going gets really tough. Knowing you can do it, and learning good coping mechanisms for those times is an enormous gift that parnets can bestow on their children.

Once they have learned this, once they are in the zone, so to speak, there is nothing wrong with continuing to give them as you wish, as FS does, but teaching a child financial reason and sense is part of bringing them up. Learning that the world still functions without the small luxuries, and where you can hold comfortably and not so comfortably gives a person the strength to cope with much of the adversity they may encounter in our modern lives, whether emotional, financial, health or otherwise.

Just my opinion.

ElTam

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 9:00 pm

You can't make blanket statements.

Some people get everything handed to them and are entitled brats.
Other people get everything handed to them and use the extra time, money, etc. that they have to better themselves and to be an asset to the community in a way people scraping by don't have the time or money to do.

Some people who have to work for everything come out very strong, very focused, and with a lot of empathy for other people who struggle.
Some people who have to work for everything are bitter and are constantly looking at what yenem has.

That's four out of hundreds of options. People are unique. Why do we need to be black and white? What does it accomplish?

Last edited by ElTam on Fri, Jul 11 2014, 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total