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Annoyed at father-in-law-vent
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 10:58 pm
My father-in-law and I do not talk much. We have a cordial hello, goodbye, thank you non relationship.

Earlier, I was sitting in my car outside his house when he comes to the car and says, "Could you dress dd more tznius?"

I was floored.

Dd is three years old. She was in a short-sleeved right above the knee dress--perfectly normal for a 3 year old toddler. My mother-in-law with her very big mouth has brought up the topic TWICE and each time I told her, "I hear what your saying about you dressing your dds in tights and long sleeves at 3 but that is not what I am doing. It is perfectly normal in my community (Lkwd) for a 3 year old to be dressed like this."

I was speechless at my father-in-laws "request". Finally, I said, "I can dress her more tznius when she comes to your house" and that was the end of the convo.

Imamothers I really value your opinions and am willing to see another side. Pls tell me if I am wrong that:

1. My father-in-law was completely out of line.

2. I regret the "can dress her more tznius in your house". All her summer clothes are short, should I go shopping?!
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 10:59 pm
This does not belong in the finances section. No clue how to move it, if its possible.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:03 pm
Don't bring her to his house.

He was probably put up to it by his wife. They have no business telling you how to dress your daughter. Don't give in and let them control you. Don't let anyone else tell you how to raise your child. They are way out of line.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:07 pm
that is so out of line and ridiculous. I do think your comeback was great though! the prankster that I am, I would purposely dress her in tights and a turtle neck even in the summer every time I went to their house.
what exactly is bothering them? is her cleavage showing?? LOL
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:09 pm
That would seriously freak me out. A three year old is just barely finished being a toddler. It just sounds creepy.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:14 pm
There is a matter of respect. Your inlaws dont respect the way you raise your DD and you dont respect their values.

I have my DS wear clean (no words) tshirts to my inlaws. My DD wears long skirts so that they shouldnt tell her to cover her knees every 3 seconds. My DH wears a white shirt, and not the tshirt he wants to wear because he doesnt want his father to curse him again (yes it has happened). My toddler is turning 3 soon and she will continue to wear pants, but never to my inlaws. My inlaws want us to fit into their mold of what their family should look like and we humor them for the 3 times a year we see them.

They are my kids grandparents after all, and the only ones that live nearby.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:17 pm
I am the amother above.

I grew up with male relatives that didnt wear a yamulka or tzises. The girls wore pants and tank tops. But when they came to visit my grandmother the boys wore the yamulka and tzises and the girls wore short sleeve tops and skirts. They did this so my grandmother should get upset.
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agreer




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:24 pm
amother wrote:
I am the amother above.

I grew up with male relatives that didnt wear a yamulka or tzises. The girls wore pants and tank tops. But when they came to visit my grandmother the boys wore the yamulka and tzises and the girls wore short sleeve tops and skirts. They did this so my grandmother should get upset.


This is a great example of respect one should show to one's elders. This is appropriate.

I personally have no problem with what your fil said, though I do believe he should've said it more tactfully and respectfully. However, I think you responded perfectly.
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bookworm10




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:26 pm
In this situation, I see two choices.

The first is to say, the heck with them. It is my child, me and my husband have mutually agreed how we want our children to dress and when to cover elbows, etc. And either do not go to them until they can respect your wishes, or keep doing what you are doing and try to not get annoyed.

The other choice is to dress your daughter how they like just when you visit them. I'm not saying this is right, but I'm sure this is the road some people would take.

I don't think either choice is wrong. My father will not outright say that he doesn't approve of the way my daughter dresses, but I know he would rather I put my four year old in long sleeves and long skirts as well. Me, I'm happy that she is out of pants and only wearing skirts. I was one of those four year olds in long sleeves in the summer. Crazy. I chose to do as I and my husband agree on, and be strong. Then again, no one is making comments to me. Its just eyes.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:29 pm
I don't agree with how it was presented to you. If they felt they MUST say something, they should've gone to your husband. I actually have the opposite problem. I dress simply, and my in laws and sisters in law are more stylish. When we are with my husbands family I do put in a little more effort to dress a little fancier. I.E, I will wear my 5'' heels instead of my 2'' heels. They never told me to do this , but I feel it is expected. I know it sounds crazy, but we see them a few times a year so I suck it up and soak my feet afterwards LOL
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 12:10 am
I have different standards of dress for different places I visit. If this is their standard and the one your husband grew up with, why not? You can throw a pair of leggings on under a dress and a longer sleeved dress. You can tell them you are happy to try and abide by their standard when you visit although you are forging your own way in regards to tznius.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 1:15 am
I think your father in law was completely out of line! If I were in your situation , I would have my husband tell his parents that we don't appreciate comments about how we or our children should dress. We are adults and entitled to make our own parenting decisions. I think your husband can also mention that you agreed to dress your daughters according to their standards in their house because you felt threatened but that you are not comfortable with that decision now that you have had time to think about it. I am all for dressing differently in different communities but NOT for three year olds and NOT in your in laws home which should feel like a home not a "different community".
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Merrymom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 2:19 am
I could agree with dressing out of respect for the grandparents if your dd was older. However, she is not, she is a baby at three years old and the biggest frummie knows that these are just chumros and at most this is about chinuch at that age. This has nothing to do with halacha or being sensitive to them. A grandfather is not looking at his grandchild in a zexual manner, and even if he c"v was a huge pervert it would be extremely shocking to be so with a three year old. I would just forget it and politely nod your head while ignoring them, but at some point when she's older this may be more of an issue. You can revisit the topic then.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 10:12 am
Since you are in Lakewood - DH and I asked our Rav (you can p.m. me if you want to know who) about tznius for our DD's, and he advised us that in absence of a family minhag that is more strict (neither my father nor my FIL could care less how I dress my 3 year old, so long as they are tznius by the time they are, say, 9 or so) we could rely on the Chazon Ish's psak of 5-6.....but that in Lakewood we should follow minhag hamakom which is 5 or Primary, whichever is first.

So our DD's wore short socks, short sleeves, etc...as you describe, until their 5th birthday, and with one DD until Primary as her birthday was in late September.


Maybe you could buy one Bubby-Zeidy outfit. Or a cardigan.

I understand your feelings, glad my FIL isn't fussy about that. I have a close friend who gets the same from her in-laws, her FIL wouldn't make kiddush in front of her 3-year-old with short sleeves. I guess he feels that's his minhag.
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 10:58 am
I might agree to long sleeves/skirt on a three-year-old, but not tights. no way. my toddler refuses tights in the winter, I wouldn't force her to be uncomfortable at grandparents' houses just because they're picky. if your toddler is fine with it, fine, but tights in the summer for a family that doesn't believe in that is pushing it.

and I would tell fil that the way she dresses is tznius for a three-year-old. if need be, discuss with a rav so you have a source you can quote.

I would be very careful to make sure your in-laws don't discuss tznius with your dd as she gets older, btw.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 11:04 am
I heard a story how someone sent pictures to her relatives of her children. One of the relatives mailed back the pictures because she was embarrassed to show them to ppl because the TWO YEAR OLD was wearing tanks/shorts. Now that's crazy! We just go according to what is done in our community. Our daughters wear short sleeves/socks until primary. That's what is accepted where we live. Your father in law definitely overstepped his boundaries.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 11:12 am
Chayalle wrote:
Since you are in Lakewood - DH and I asked our Rav (you can p.m. me if you want to know who) about tznius for our DD's, and he advised us that in absence of a family minhag that is more strict (neither my father nor my FIL could care less how I dress my 3 year old, so long as they are tznius by the time they are, say, 9 or so) we could rely on the Chazon Ish's psak of 5-6.....but that in Lakewood we should follow minhag hamakom which is 5 or Primary, whichever is first.

So our DD's wore short socks, short sleeves, etc...as you describe, until their 5th birthday, and with one DD until Primary as her birthday was in late September.


Maybe you could buy one Bubby-Zeidy outfit. Or a cardigan.

I understand your feelings, glad my FIL isn't fussy about that. I have a close friend who gets the same from her in-laws, her FIL wouldn't make kiddush in front of her 3-year-old with short sleeves. I guess he feels that's his minhag.


Liking this was not enough and your post is spot on for Lakewood and the Yeshvish world.

I live in Lakewood so when my girls go into primary they dress in school and camp as per the rules but since my Rav holds 9 or perhaps younger if the girl is physically more mature for her age at home I allow them to wear short sleeves and socks and I see many in my neighborhood do as well.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 11:27 am
mummiedearest wrote:
I might agree to long sleeves/skirt on a three-year-old, but not tights. no way. my toddler refuses tights in the winter, I wouldn't force her to be uncomfortable at grandparents' houses just because they're picky. if your toddler is fine with it, fine, but tights in the summer for a family that doesn't believe in that is pushing it.

and I would tell fil that the way she dresses is tznius for a three-year-old. if need be, discuss with a rav so you have a source you can quote.

I would be very careful to make sure your in-laws don't discuss tznius with your dd as she gets older, btw.


I agree with all of this.

You need to build some boundaries now.
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allrgymama




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 11:29 am
I have the exact same thing, but with my grandfather.

DD #1 was incredibly tall for her age as a toddler (she's still tall, but has slowed down) and so we asked a sheila before her 3rd birthday as to whether we should keep putting her into pants or not, simply because of maaras ayin. We were told to put her in skirts if we were more comfortable with it (NOT as an obligation) and so we did. She continues to wear short sleeves.

But, I've been getting flack from my paternal grandparents since before her >third birthday about the way that she dresses -- the point that my grandmother would have bought me sweaters to put over her short sleeved dresses if my mother wouldn't have stopped her.

Mind you, due to her height and size, I am hyper-conscious as it is of how she dresses; I'll let her wear skirts and dresses that sit just above the knee, but not at mid-thigh like so many of my friends and neighbors do for their daughters the same age. She wears short sleeves, but not sleeveless or tank tops. I speak with a number of my neighbors and friends before the start of each spring/summer season to make sure that I'm not continuing to dress her in a way that's no longer appropriate (for example, before I shopped for spring this year, I asked whether or not people were starting to put their girls into long sleeves already and the answer was a resounding 'No!')

I thought, after last Pesach (when I had it out a bit with my grandmother) that I was done with this, but when they left my Vact Nacht (a month ago, DD turned 5 on Pesach), my grandfather got back out of his car again to ask me how old she was and, when I told him, criticized/yelled at me in front of a few of my neighbors/friends about how she wasn't dressed tsniusdikly.

And what was I supposed to do? I was totally torn between wanting to defend/explain myself and not wanting to be 'chutzpadig' to him in public. I tried to make a joke of it and brush it off, to which my grandmother said, 'Don't worry. He says the same things to Aunt X and Aunt Y' (who also live in LKWD) and I turned to her with a 'And don't you think that if they're older than I am, living her longer than I am and have more daughters than I do, that they know that this is an acceptable way to dress a five year old in LKWD?' (both aunts also have daughters born a couple of weeks of mine, so they're certainly current on it) after which they continued to criticize me before driving away.

The next morning, I simply didn't even know how to get my daughter's dressed for the bris, for fear of getting yelled at again. My sister, who was helping out, told me that she was going to dress them and if my grandfather was going to have so much of a problem with what got picked that he started to yell, then she would yell right back at him. Baruch Hashem, they kept both of my girls away from him at the bris, so it wasn't an issue.

In short: if you know that what you're doing is appropriate for your community/you're part of Lakewood and/or you've spoken with a Rav who confirms that it is indeed acceptable, then you have to do your best not to let it bother you.

I'm still working on the last part. Tongue Out
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amother


 

Post Fri, Jul 11 2014, 11:33 am
Thank you all so much for your replies.

I'm going to have my dh tell his father that he should kindly not get involved in our chinuch and if he has any comments and suggestions, he should direct them to him. (I'm sure the reason my fil didnt tell my dh to begin with is because he knows he wouldve taken him to task--whil the dil would have to remain polite.)

Dressing her more tznius for grandparents would be hard because we see them fairly often (they have a summer home here). Its not like we can dress up special 4 times a year.

I agree that there needs to be boundaries now.
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