Doctor and Rabbi Disagree (fasting)

amother

Mon, Aug 04 2014, 11:06 am

I am hypoglycemic since age 13 and I have not successfully fasted since then. I used to try but after I blacked out trying my dr found out and forbade me. I learned that the tikun for people who can't fast on Yom Kippur is the tu b Shebat Seder. 9 av is rabbinical so it is less strict.

I still feel guilty, but if G-d wanted us to fast he would have made us with bodies that could fast.

I hope this helps.

Scrabble123

Mon, Aug 04 2014, 11:42 am

Unfortunately there are no "Rabbinical Counsels" that monitor dayanim, but if this Rav has a dayan of his own that you know about, I would contact him. Not speaking to your doctor, and instructing you to fast until you enter a potential life threatening situation is unacceptable. Maybe he does a good job paskening other shailas, but this is clearly not his area of expertise. Please find a different Rav for this ASAP.

amother

Mon, Aug 04 2014, 9:25 pm

It is now leil tisha b'av. DH and family are off to shul for Eicha. I am home with a condition called Dry Mouth. The doctor says drink, drink, drink and the rav said I can rinse my mouth every nine minutes with one oz of water but cannot swallow the water and must spit it out after. The fast just started. My mouth is so dry like I am in a dessert. Why can't the rav understand that there need to be exceptions to the general rule and this might be one of them? I am posting this letter standing, cuz I cannot sit on a low stool cuz it's hard for me to get up after. And BTW I drank a cup of water every hour today, all day long...it only helps short term as do sucking candies and chewing gum. Listen to the rav, or to the doctor? Help!

FranticFrummie

Mon, Aug 04 2014, 10:26 pm

Thank you so much everyone for your replies. They've all given me great comfort.

I'm on the west coast, so the fast hasn't started yet here. DH just called me from London and practically ORDERED me not to fast. I'm going to drink water as much as I need, and if I get hungry I'll eat something with protein. Probably a boiled egg, which I don't enjoy at all. I just need to keep my blood sugar stable and make sure that I don't throw up my medications.

I will be watching lots of Tisha b'Av videos, to keep my mind in the right place. I wish I could go to shul, but they don't have air conditioning, and it's blazing hot outside right now. I'd probably pass out before I even got there.

amother

Mon, Aug 04 2014, 10:37 pm

it is interesting. When I was pregnant I couldn't fast yom kippur, in case of dehydration, which is life threatening. (I was dehydrated, in and out of the hospital a whole pregnancy, even while not fasting)
The rav made it very clear to me that I must start the shiurim at night, and not wait until the morning, so it does not come to the point, that im so nauseous from no fluids, that I cant even start taking fluids by mouth, and I would have to go in for an iv.
Meaning, you dont wait until you are too sick, and then go for emergency help. Because emergencies are life threatening, and we need to prevent that!
And yes, we are a very frum, chassidish, lubavitch family, with a respectable Rav, who UNDERSTOOD the situation!

amother

Mon, Aug 04 2014, 10:41 pm

amother wrote:

And then there's me.
I get migraines from fasting so I only fast Trisha bav and tom kipper.
I expected a migraine tomorrow but here we are an hour into the fast and I feel one starting already. Not due to the fast just really bad timing.
Now what?

Same here. Except not eating or drinking is a major trigger for me so if I fast till chatzos I'm done for the day. I got a heter to eat but I am sooo thirsty already (I'm nursing), I can barely sleep. Dreaming of a cup of water.... Here's to a good start on the fast lol

amother

Tue, Aug 05 2014, 4:45 am

I'm in a similar conundrum. I am pregnant (about 7mo) and have been exhibiting proteinurea fr at least the past 2 weeks. (I also had a threatened miscarriage due to Pesach preparations with this baby.) I had my rabbi talk to my midwife directly and he said to lie in bed all day and I can eat if I get dizzy or faint or feel a contraction, but he really wants me to try the complete fast if at all possible. Or, if that isn't possible, try to fast til midday. My last pregnancy my doctor specifically said with the proteinurea, I should not stop drinking. The problem is once you're dehydrated it's too late. I actually didn't get the message from my rabbi until 2 hours into the fast and it made me cry, not helpful when you're trying not to lose liquid! I've not been up all night because I can't sleep worrying about this. I can't discuss with my husband because he told me not to ask a rabbi at all because if I did he'd try to make me fast until it was too late. I want to tell him that he could plead my case better than I can, but he wouldn't ask for me.

amother

Tue, Aug 05 2014, 5:55 am

I have a question to those women who will only drink or only eat minimum today, 9av. Why do you do this? AFAIK, my father is a posek and told me so too, as well as having learnt it in 2 diff schools and in seminary, on 9av the moment you eat or drink something you no longer fast at all and can eat normally. (Im not speaking of mistakenly doing so, thats a sheila to be asked, but conciously doing so)
Yom kippur we have shiurim because that still counts as fasting because on y"k we have the torah obligation of. "Ve"onisem et nafshotechem" so for example a person should rather sleep all day and not daven at all if that will make his fasting possile. but 9av is about remembering the churban and thus our sadness is more important then the fasting itself.
So my question to all of you not fasting depriving yourself of normal meals today why are you doing this? The torah doesnt allow us to hurt ourselves on purpose. If you dont fast then eat! Not junkfood or the best yummiest meals, but basic stuff
Unless I am missing something and there is a different halachic opinion? Or are some of you just taking halacha into your hands.
Sorry if I sound cynical, I am not. I just so often see women putting restrictions on themselves becasuse they dont understand thtt poskim, rabbonim, dayonim are here for all of us for percisely this!
So please, explain me if this is a psak you got from a reputable rav or your own decision.
Im only saying all this because I care. If you got the psak not to fast then you have an obligation to look after yourself.
Again pls dont bash me if I sounded to hard, I dont mean it that way, just explain to me if I am mistaken

FranticFrummie

Tue, Aug 05 2014, 6:23 am

amother wrote:

I understand what you're saying. In this case, if you're eating and drinking, then you're not really "fasting" al pi halacha. BUT, if you stick to water instead of your usual decaf latte with whip cream, and eat a hardboiled egg instead of an ice cream sundae, then what you're doing is helping to keep your mind on the seriousness of the day. By staying mindful that your food choices should not be "yummy", it's a way of reminding yourself to stay I the right mood.

amother

Tue, Aug 05 2014, 6:28 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

And THAT I agree to completely - if you read what I wrote. Its not about eating the good stuff. Sticking to basics so that you give the body what it needs but depriving yourself of your fave foods etc is fine, after all the purpose is to remember the churban and this will help us! But my question was to women who only take fluids today or eat in shiurim etc.

Smiling Wife

Tue, Aug 05 2014, 6:53 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I take a medication that puts a lot of strain on my liver. My doctor says that fasting and being dehydrated can be potentially life threatening, and that I MUST drink a LOT of water (not just sips), especially on hot days. I've checked around, and all medical data backs her up.

My rabbi says that I have to try to fast completely, and only when I become sick can I have any water. Obviously, my doctor doesn't want me to get sick in the first place, especially when liver failure is possible.

DH says that I should listen to my doctor, but I still feel guilty! Believe me, I'm not looking for an easy out. I would give anything to be healthy enough to fast, even if it was hard on me (migraines, etc.)

I'm not sure exactly what I'm asking here, I guess I just need to vent, and see if anyone else has been in this position.

I think it is terrible that the rabbi said that.

I want to ask you though. Did the Rabbi know what the Dr said before he told you his psak? I think I am trying to cling to the hope that the rabbi wasn't simply absurd!

amother

Tue, Aug 05 2014, 9:10 am

amother wrote:

It's too late now to help you for Tisha B'Av but I wanted to pass along some helpful info about headaches. DH's friend suffered from migraines & consulted with several doctors until he went to a neurologist who told him to take 400 mg of magnesium twice a day & 200 mg coQ10. His headaches are much better now.

I used to get sinus headaches before & during rainy weather. I would have to take a nasal decongestant every few hours & ibuprofen, all day. I started on a low dose of magnesium (200mg) which did nothing. I increased to 200 mg twice a day & I can tell you that after many years of headaches, they are much improved. I don't bother taking coQ10. Sometimes in humid weather, I wake up with the beginning of a sinus headache & I take one nasal decongestant tablet &/or ibuprofen and that's all I have to take (instead of taking them all day.)