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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
mdoif
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 Fri, Jul 18 2014, 11:03 am
| cookiecutter wrote: | There are multiple issues with your previous posts. Since everyone seems to have disliked them and you still don't seem to get it, I am going to point out what they are.
1. Regardless of whether OP is making the right decision, you do not gain anything by criticizing. OP is aware of the issues in a way that you are not. In your opinion she is underestimating some of the danger. Perhaps you are right. But you have not said anything that offers a solution or even changes her basis of decision.
I didn't mean to criticize, only to advise, as per the OP's request. I expressed my opinion in as strong terms as I feel about the subject.
2. To the extent that secular society is flawed, and to the extent that public school is the wrong decision, you should express that appropriately. Calling public schools a cesspool or a sewer is wrongful because it's obviously not true. It would also be offensive if it were true, because there are people here who send their children there and haven't asked for your advice.
Obviously I was talking spiritually. Have you seen for example the terms the Tanya uses when writing about non jews?
3. Generally, labeling and demonization are a bad thing. By categorizing public schools children as "lepers" in addition to the epithets I mentioned above, you are discouraging productive action. The way to deal with it is to describe what the actual problems are. If they are with topics of conversation, or the home life of classmates, or unhealthy obsession with materialism or s-xuality, then by discussing it in those terms, OP can address them. But using blanket insults is just going to make people toss up their hands and give up.
The problems are all of the above, but far more so just the mingling and association with non jews. Chazal instituted various halachos (for example the issur of stam yayin) in order to keep us apart from the non jews. Anyone who so wishes can take a Sharpie and start editing her own shulchan aruch - it'll do her as much good as tearing up an electric bill...
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cookiecutter
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 11:26 am
| mdoif wrote: | There are multiple issues with your previous posts. Since everyone seems to have disliked them and you still don't seem to get it, I am going to point out what they are.
1. Regardless of whether OP is making the right decision, you do not gain anything by criticizing. OP is aware of the issues in a way that you are not. In your opinion she is underestimating some of the danger. Perhaps you are right. But you have not said anything that offers a solution or even changes her basis of decision.
I didn't mean to criticize, only to advise, as per the OP's request. I expressed my opinion in as strong terms as I feel about the subject.
| You did not advise; that was my point. You expressed your opinion in a way that could not change OP's choice.
| Quote: | 2. To the extent that secular society is flawed, and to the extent that public school is the wrong decision, you should express that appropriately. Calling public schools a cesspool or a sewer is wrongful because it's obviously not true. It would also be offensive if it were true, because there are people here who send their children there and haven't asked for your advice.
Obviously I was talking spiritually. Have you seen for example the terms the Tanya uses when writing about non jews? |
I don't know what context the Ba'al HaTanya was writing in, nor is it relevant. I do know that in this context it was offensive because you know that there are people here who send their children to public school and who have not asked for advice. I would also argue that the OP didn't really want advice either, but at least that is somewhat arguable.
| Quote: | 3. Generally, labeling and demonization are a bad thing. By categorizing public schools children as "lepers" in addition to the epithets I mentioned above, you are discouraging productive action. The way to deal with it is to describe what the actual problems are. If they are with topics of conversation, or the home life of classmates, or unhealthy obsession with materialism or s-xuality, then by discussing it in those terms, OP can address them. But using blanket insults is just going to make people toss up their hands and give up.
The problems are all of the above, but far more so just the mingling and association with non jews. Chazal instituted various halachos (for example the issur of stam yayin) in order to keep us apart from the non jews. Anyone who so wishes can take a Sharpie and start editing her own shulchan aruch - it'll do her as much good as tearing up an electric bill... |
1. This is as close as you've come to contributing to the conversation. You informed the OP of something she may not have known before. That is the kind of thing that your original response should have contained - information geared toward contributing to the OP's decision.
2. Unfortunately, it's also wrong. The way halacha works is that it tells you what you're not allowed to do. So long as they are not going to serve wine in the public school, it is not a problem of stam yaynam (this should not be seen as halachic advice. If you think it may actually be oveir the issur of stam yaynam to go to public school, ask a local rabbi. But first post on Imamother to see which rabbonim are maikil about this.) If Chazal wanted to make public school assur, they could have done so. They probably should have also instituted a mechanism to pay for cheders. But they didn't make any such halacha, regardless of what is written in sharpie in the margins of your Shulchan Aruch Harav.
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mdoif
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 11:59 am
| cookiecutter wrote: | | They probably should have also instituted a mechanism to pay for cheders. But they didn't make any such halacha, regardless of what is written in sharpie in the margins of your Shulchan Aruch Harav. |
Actually they did. It is called תקנת רבי יהושע בן גמלא and it is brought down in shulchan aruch. Al pi halacha every Jewish child should have a Jewish education, regardless of their means, and it is incumbent on the community to provide this.
(There is however some discussion whether this applies only to boys who are mechuyav to learn torah, or even to girls because nowadays when education is compulsory not providing them with a Jewish education is the same as providing them with a non Jewish one.)
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RachelLA
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 12:04 pm
| cookiecutter wrote: | 1. This is as close as you've come to contributing to the conversation. You informed the OP of something she may not have known before. That is the kind of thing that your original response should have contained - information geared toward contributing to the OP's decision.
2. Unfortunately, it's also wrong. The way halacha works is that it tells you what you're not allowed to do. So long as they are not going to serve wine in the public school, it is not a problem of stam yaynam (this should not be seen as halachic advice. If you think it may actually be oveir the issur of stam yaynam to go to public school, ask a local rabbi. But first post on Imamother to see which rabbonim are maikil about this.) If Chazal wanted to make public school assur, they could have done so. They probably should have also instituted a mechanism to pay for cheders. But they didn't make any such halacha, regardless of what is written in sharpie in the margins of your Shulchan Aruch Harav. |
I'm not a fan of mdoif. But I do understand what she is trying to say in this very last segment.
She isn't comparing public school to stam yain. She's offering a mashal. As in. . . If we aren't allowed to drink stam yain after a [gentile], then all the more so we aren't allowed to mingle with them.
And the black on white halacha doesn't always tell us what not to do. As in "This is allowed. This is not allowed." Their are a lot of remezim. For example. . . going to an intermarried couple's wedding. Not explicitly written "Yes or No" in the halacha. You need to know the subtext of the text in order to know the correct answer. There are a lot of places in the halacha where you have to say draw a mashal.
Having said that, I get mdoif's concern. I think her whole post centers on the fact that if the OP sends her kids to public school, she will lose them. And that is a concern, but only for the parent that is laid back.
I myself went to public school. For many reasons. And I saw a few MO families send their kids too. A lot of those kids came out more "modern" and less "orthodox". Which I think is what mdoif is trying to say: First it starts out like this and then its all a slippery slope downhill.
But what you're not getting is that at the end of the day, is that the very same thing could have happened to those kids even had they gone to Jewish schools. Because let's face it, some students go to college, which is heavily inundated with non jews. Which brings me to my point, it depends on your home environment and your mother.
My mother watched me like a hawk. And every day at home I was constantly, constantly told the difference between me and them. So much so that it became a part of my thinking, and nothing ever happened. My brother too. She wouldn't let us sleep until we did Chumash. Didn't matter if we had homework that kept us up until 2 in the morning. She was relentless. And it paid off. Today I'm religious and I'm raising a very religious family. I haven't compromised anything.
So it really depends on the mom and on the home. If the OP can or will be a little bit of a "sergeant" when it comes to these things then I really don't think she'll have a problem. But like I said in all my previous posts, if she is going to be laid back about it and just rely on the fact that in 2 years she will be in a Jewish school, then that is dangerous. And by the sound of it, the OP doesn't seem to fall in the latter category. And at any rate, she doesn't seem to have a choice due to finances, so even if she isn't the "sergeant" type she is going to have to train herself to be.
Having said all this mdoif, I do not know where the OP lives. . . but based on the sound of this school and how they have treated her, they seem to be missing a lot of the character traits laid out by our tanaaim and amoraim and our gedolim.
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saw50st8
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 12:04 pm
| mdoif wrote: | | In the past when I had more free time, and I wasn't hovering just above the poverty line, I spent dozens (perhaps hundreds) of hours tutoring Yiddish children free. |
That's no excuse! You should definitely take on another job, rather than allow a Jewish child to swim in raw sewage!!!!
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kb
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 12:05 pm
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Does "every Jewish child should have a Jewish education" mean they must go to an expensive private school, or can they have private Torah tutoring at home to supplement their government funded secular education? (al pi halacha, of course!)
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RachelLA
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 12:06 pm
mdoif. . . Completely different topic. Do you live in Israel? I'm asking because of the Hebrew in your above post.
If so, public schools in Israel are nothing like public schools in America. There is a day and night difference.
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saw50st8
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 12:08 pm
| mdoif wrote: | Actually they did. It is called תקנת רבי יהושע בן גמלא and it is brought down in shulchan aruch. Al pi halacha every Jewish child should have a Jewish education, regardless of their means, and it is incumbent on the community to provide this.
(There is however some discussion whether this applies only to boys who are mechuyav to learn torah, or even to girls because nowadays when education is compulsory not providing them with a Jewish education is the same as providing them with a non Jewish one.) |
Unfortunately, the system is not in place that way. Right now, its incumbent on the parents to pay. When people don't pay, the schools cannot pay their staff or keep the lights on. Its really a catch 22.
Most schools want to keep kids in their school. Many cannot afford to let people keep attending without paying because they will have to close down the entire school. Unless you are willing to volunteer your time or make significant donations to the school to cover the cost, its pretty terrible of you to try to even guilt the OP.
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Ruchel
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 1:15 pm
Yet again there are rabbis who send/allow/suggest PS. Not, not "lite MO only", before someone says it.
Some consider Talmud Torah enough (by default, not perfect): proof is there are families converted, or adopted kids converted, with no Jewish school nearby.
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MaBelleVie
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 1:27 pm
| Ruchel wrote: | Yet again there are rabbis who send/allow/suggest PS. Not, not "lite MO only", before someone says it.
Some consider Talmud Torah enough (by default, not perfect): proof is there are families converted, or adopted kids converted, with no Jewish school nearby. |
OT, but it is highly unusual for a respected BD to convert anyone who doesn't live within close proximity of a frum community.
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cookiecutter
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 3:36 pm
| mdoif wrote: | Actually they did. It is called תקנת רבי יהושע בן גמלא and it is brought down in shulchan aruch. Al pi halacha every Jewish child should have a Jewish education, regardless of their means, and it is incumbent on the community to provide this.
(There is however some discussion whether this applies only to boys who are mechuyav to learn torah, or even to girls because nowadays when education is compulsory not providing them with a Jewish education is the same as providing them with a non Jewish one.) | I'm sorry, tell me again what OP is doing wrong? Who is violating the Shulchan Aruch? OP is certainly not intending to ignore Jewish education. The community has failed her, so she is falling back on her personal obligation, which is to provide education for ones own children.
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SRS
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Fri, Jul 18 2014, 4:03 pm
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Mdoif, I am not sure what hoving above the poverty line that you admit is your own economic status, but my own experience with friends is that those hovering simply have no concept of what is asked and NEEDED from those who are doing ok. A low income family might be asked a token amount. Make double that amount and you will be told to pay exponentially more. Your thoughts about what communities should be providing looks to those like the op to fund it.
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Ruchel
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Sat, Jul 19 2014, 5:11 pm
| MaBelleVie wrote: | | OT, but it is highly unusual for a respected BD to convert anyone who doesn't live within close proximity of a frum community. |
All cultural. A Jewish school in a community is a treat not a default. So yes, obviously, many converts don't happen to have one nearby, especially after kindergarten and even more after primary. Not commenting on "respected" or politics etc.
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amother
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Sat, Jul 19 2014, 10:20 pm
| saw50st8 wrote: | Unfortunately, the system is not in place that way. Right now, its incumbent on the parents to pay. When people don't pay, the schools cannot pay their staff or keep the lights on. Its really a catch 22.
Most schools want to keep kids in their school. Many cannot afford to let people keep attending without paying because they will have to close down the entire school. Unless you are willing to volunteer your time or make significant donations to the school to cover the cost, its pretty terrible of you to try to even guilt the OP. |
Actually in all the Chassidishe communites that I have dealt with there is a system in place of such nature. Any chassidishe child is taken into school no matter the parent's ability to pay and the "gvirim" are expected to cough up the money to ensure the schools run.
Perhap's other communities can learn from the Chassidishe one's?
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amother
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Sat, Jul 19 2014, 10:23 pm
I'm the OP
We're getting together with very good friends of ours tonight. I'm so scared. They will be shocked and so so sad when they realize that we are 100% serious about this. I know that they will try to talk us out of this. No matter what it seems to be the only option for us right now. It will be so hard to be honest and explain everything to them... I suppose I won't blame them for trying. I'm just afraid that I will come home tonight feeling more sad and depressed than ever...
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SRS
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Sat, Jul 19 2014, 11:04 pm
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Tell your friends that the subject is NOT up for discussion right now as you are in an emotional place.
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sequoia
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Sat, Jul 19 2014, 11:15 pm
| SRS wrote: | | Tell your friends that the subject is NOT up for discussion right now as you are in an emotional place. |
Absolutely. This is very important.
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imasinger
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Sat, Jul 19 2014, 11:29 pm
OP, how did it go?
We are here for you.
I hope all the time you spent articulating your situation here will help you handle those well meaning people who give you a hard time IRL.
Which hopefully tonight was not the case.
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amother
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Sun, Jul 20 2014, 1:37 am
I LOVE my friends! I am so lucky and so grateful to have them in my life!
What we need to do has not changed. In fact we have found out that the school seems to have a track record in acting vindictively towards families who have pulled a child out - as we did with our older son (the one in HS). I am petrified having my middle child in this place. I'm not sure what to do about him. I don't know what the alternatives are - especially for such a complicated child which he is. I just have to hope that the individual teachers will care enough to have a meaningful impact on him. I am more distrubed about this school than ever before. I am still devastated that my daughter will not be in a yeshivah - but a true yeshivah does not behave this disgracefully. I don't know what more to say.
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octopus
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Sun, Jul 20 2014, 9:31 am
| amother wrote: | Actually in all the Chassidishe communites that I have dealt with there is a system in place of such nature. Any chassidishe child is taken into school no matter the parent's ability to pay and the "gvirim" are expected to cough up the money to ensure the schools run.
Perhap's other communities can learn from the Chassidishe one's? |
the chassidishe world cannot even begin to fathom the depths of the tuition crisis that the rest of the frum community seems to be suffering from. I hate to spell it out to you. The chassidishe boys school don't really pay their english teachers very well. They don't really teach english or it's not taken seriously. Tuition cost is lower in general because you are getting much less. While it is nice that richer ppl make a significant dent, but perhaps there is more money floating around to pay for tuition expenses if communities as a whole are benefiting from gov't subsidized programs. 
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