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Are Gerim Coming to Dinner?!
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 1:28 am
All names are changed.

Something got my goat recently - BIG TIME! We had two couples over for dinner. One couple, Max and Joanne Fox, got there earlier than Sam and Sarah. I mentioned that Sam and Sarah (called them by their last name - for the sake of this post I'll change it to 'Rodriguez') were also coming. So, Sarah turned to me and said, "Oh, is he a Mexican ger? Or did someone else in his family convert?"

Two Things:

1) Don't ask about Geirus! It's not okay. Both Max and Joanne went to day schools, so I feel like they should 'know the rules,' and know that this isn't an appropriate question! How is it that I, with only some Sunday school, six months of seminary, and nothing else know this is rude/unacceptable but they don't? While there is nothing wrong with being curious, it's never appropriate to ask about someone else being a ger/not being a ger unless they're about to marry your kid. Moreover, them having the last name Rodriguez doesn't mean that they converted!! Jews come in all different shapes and sizes. Yes, Rabbi Rodriguez's great-grandfather is a ger - but it's not anyone's business. So I said, "I don't know, but he's never mentioned it, so I wouldn't ask." Casually, during dinner, I brought up how there are millions of people in South and Central America with Jewish roots b/c of the Inquisition. I wanted to communicate to them that this question isn't okay/halachic, but don't want to be harsh or rude - what is a good way to tell someone that this question isn't halachically okay that is short and sweet?

2) HE IS NOT MEXICAN!! He is from New York, and his great-grandfather was from El Salvador! Why don't people understand that there is more than one country where Spanish is spoken? Should I even have bothered bringing this up?

FYI - Most of the gerim who I know have Jewish dads or grandfathers - so they don't have 'weird' last names. A friend of mine who worked in kiruv said that most of the kids she met on campus who were Jewish had Hebrew first names (Caleb, Sarah, Rebecca) and Irish or Italian last names.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 2:06 am
Attending day school doesn't give you immunity from being a clod.

Or from being among the millions of Americans (assuming she grew up in the US) with an abysmal knowledge of geography.
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heidi




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 2:31 am
OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here. When I have company with interesting backgrounds (and interesting in a basically orthodox community can be anything from older single, couple without kids, divorcee, ger, etc.) I "warn" my children and other company precisely so that the person in question doesn't get asked uncomfortable questions.
I would have told the first couple that the second couple were gerim and didn't like to discuss it and leave it at that. Or, that they weren't and would be happy to discuss their interesting last name.
Forewarned is forearmed. Or something like that.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 2:39 am
[quote="heidi"]OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here. When I have company with interesting backgrounds (and interesting in a basically orthodox community can be anything from older single, couple without kids, divorcee, ger, etc.) I "warn" my children and other company precisely so that the person in question doesn't get asked uncomfortable questions.
I would have told the first couple that the second couple were gerim and didn't like to discuss it and leave it at that. Or, that they weren't and would be happy to discuss their interesting last name.
Forewarned is forearmed. Or something like that.[/quote]

The couple were NOT gerim - his great-grandfather was a ger! And he has never given me information about this (his wife mentioned it - once), so I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing someone's personal details. Additionally, these are not children - they were adults who are old enough to have their own children.
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Imogen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 2:52 am
An idiot is an idiot. It is amazing how many seemingly decent people, when discovering something they consider juicy or vaguely outside the norm of their very little world behave like this.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 5:19 am
Ugh. Banging head

This is why I started a Pinterest board specifically showing as many different types of Jews from as many different countries as I could find. I LOVE diversity, and I love teaching DD that Jews come in any size, shape, and color, and that we live pretty much everywhere (except Antarctica.)

Rule number one. Do. Not. Assume.
Rule number two. When in doubt, keep your mouth shut! It wasnt me
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mommy9




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 8:35 am
It sounds she asked you not him
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 8:43 am
Rodriguez is among samech tet names. They can get Spanish citizenship. Just tell her that.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 8:47 am
Sounds like a real jerk. Jerks go to day school as well. They can also come in the frum variety. There is no monopoly on jerkdom.
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miami85




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 8:47 am
Some people find geirim--and their journey--fascinating, the geirim sometimes are proud of their story others are more private. I wouldn't make a big deal of it, you could just say "I don't know" and move on.
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 8:47 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
...This is why I started a Pinterest board specifically showing as many different types of Jews from as many different countries as I could find. I LOVE diversity, and I love teaching DD that Jews come in any size, shape, and color, and that we live pretty much everywhere (except Antarctica.) ...

I'd love to see your Pinterest board. Can you post a link?
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 9:09 am
"Oh, are we allowed to ask questions like that?"
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amother


 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 9:28 am
My mother is a gioret. I have no problem discussing it. Except I feel its my mothers secret, not mine so I feel guilty when I do. I really hate not being able to talk about my family and its this big bad secret. Its not! I am proud of my mother and I think she is amazing. I am in awe of most gerim too.

If it was my long dead grandparents who was no longer alive, I would not bothered at all.

Chances are, your guests are not embarrassed of their great grandfather and are happy to talk about it - since they already mentioned it to you.

We often have guests who are happy to discuss their interesting families. Especially people from M.O communities. In more chariedi/yeshivish comunities, yeah, having an out of the box family is a huge black mark.
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 10:22 am
miami85 wrote:
Some people find geirim--and their journey--fascinating, the geirim sometimes are proud of their story others are more private. I wouldn't make a big deal of it, you could just say "I don't know" and move on.


Except they weren't gerim!

People often assume that people are gerim for no better reason than a Spanish last name or African ancestry. I've mentioned before that I have black friends who are often asked about their conversion. Except that many were born Jewish! (One to a Jewish mom and black dad, one to a Jewish mom and black dad who converted, and - gasp - a few to Jewish black parents! Because there are black Jews!)
Someone I know gets asked about "her journey to Judaism" often, and she was born Jewish. It's annoying.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 10:32 am
I have some good friends who are pretty recent geirim. It drives me crazy how some people act around them, like translating very basic Jewish terms into English when they're having a conversation. It makes me cringe.
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 3:17 pm
heidi wrote:
OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here. When I have company with interesting backgrounds (and interesting in a basically orthodox community can be anything from older single, couple without kids, divorcee, ger, etc.) I "warn" my children and other company precisely so that the person in question doesn't get asked uncomfortable questions.
I would have told the first couple that the second couple were gerim and didn't like to discuss it and leave it at that. Or, that they weren't and would be happy to discuss their interesting last name.
Forewarned is forearmed. Or something like that.


actually, I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to let other people know of others' backgrounds if they're geirim. this is not just etiquette, it's halacha afaik. it is far better to teach your children that questions along these lines are onaas dvarim and should not be asked. it's ok to be curious, but one has to understand that not everything is one's personal business.
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ElTam




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 5:38 pm
I'm a giyoret. I do not like to be interrogated about my path to Judaism, what the conversion process was like, how my family feels, or any of the other intrusive questions people like to ask, which are a) none of their business and b) likely to fall under the prohibition of oppressing a ger by treating them in a way you would not treat a born Jew.

If you know people who do this, and you can in any way help to them to stop, you would be doing a great thing for those of us who happened to have our Jewish neshama born into a non-Jewish body. If you do this, no matter how curious you are. DON'T ASK. If you want to hear people's conversion stories, plenty of people have written books about theirs. Find a book and read one. Search for a talk on the Internet by a ger who is willing to share their story. My life is not your business.

/rant
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busydev




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 5:44 pm
mummiedearest wrote:
actually, I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to let other people know of others' backgrounds if they're geirim. this is not just etiquette, it's halacha afaik. it is far better to teach your children that questions along these lines are onaas dvarim and should not be asked. it's ok to be curious, but one has to understand that not everything is one's personal business.


your not allowed to let other people know?

I thought it was that you cant talk to the ger about it. Could be I thought wrong of course.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 5:48 pm
I'm a giyoret with 50% Jewish blood, a Jewish last name, and, according to one friend at least, "Jewish eyes." No one has ever asked me anything, and I don't volunteer information unless I feel comfortable.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 31 2014, 5:56 pm
busydev wrote:
your not allowed to let other people know?

I thought it was that you cant talk to the ger about it. Could be I thought wrong of course.


I believe in the Chofetz Chaim's "Guard Your Tongue" it says that one shouldn't discuss/relate a person's background if they are a Ger or BT or generally 'Frummer Than Before'. You might know a million BTs/Gerim who are really comfortable discussing their past, but that doesn't mean every one is, or would be happy if others knew about their pasts.
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