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Forum
-> Announcements & Mazel Tovs
-> Tehillim Needed
abound
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Sun, Aug 03 2014, 5:33 am
I really would like to go to the levaya, but being that it is really far from me I cannot go. My heart is going out to them, I also cannot stop thinking about Oron Shauls family who do not even have a grave to visit, they don't get this closure.
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Frumdoc
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Sun, Aug 03 2014, 6:07 am
abound wrote: | So why would they make his family wait for the whole of shabbos without telling them the truth, or maybe they were told and we were not. (like what happened with the 3 kidnapped kids.)
Either way, Hashem Yinkom Damo and may Mashiach come speedily. |
There was more than one body, it takes time to work out who is who after a big blast. Blood types or other pathological analysis also takes time, although it was probably too quick for DNA confirmation, it usually takes days, unless they have some very rapid techniques for these purposes.
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Ema29
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Sun, Aug 03 2014, 8:29 am
I think making judgements on the army at this time is a really bad idea. Nobody (but their mothers) values those soldiers more than the IDF senior officials who know much better what they are dealing with than does the national post.
We need to support the forces 100% and beg Hashem with every ounce of our beings to make them successful.
Sorry for sounding harsh but negativity is so contagious and our achdus is so crucial right now.
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abound
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Sun, Aug 03 2014, 8:34 am
I am sorry to enlighten you, no reason to be speechless, I think all soldiers would rather die then be held captive by Hamas for a few years.
Yes, it does make sense to do this, save your friend lots of torture!
By the way, this is standard procedure in most armies when dealing with terrorists.
Last edited by abound on Sun, Aug 03 2014, 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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freidasima
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Sun, Aug 03 2014, 11:49 am
Huh? You've never heard of nohal Chaniba'al? It's well known. And it comes from the fact that unitl Gilad Shalit, the only things that ever happened to kidnapped Israeli soldiers was terrible torture and finally death by the other side, so better earlier than later and skip the torture. There is a difference between official "prisoners of war" in a battle and a soldier who is kidnapped particularly by a terrorist group. Better dead than in their hands.
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Tamiri
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Sun, Aug 03 2014, 11:51 am
I didn't know... my husband said nohal chaniba'al and I thought he meant Hannibal Lechter. I could not figure out what he meant....
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Raisin
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Sun, Aug 03 2014, 11:56 am
The directive is named after Hannibal, the Carthaginian general who poisoned himself rather than be taken prisoner by the Romans.
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Sanguine
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Sun, Aug 03 2014, 12:09 pm
Ema29 wrote: | Nobody (but their mothers) values those soldiers more than the IDF senior officials who know much better what they are dealing with than does the national post. |
Your post makes me think at how my son's swearing in ceremony in the army the main commander speaks to the mothers and says You are giving me your most precious item and I promise to always do my best to protect him as much as I can. The speech is very touching.
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amother
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Wed, Aug 06 2014, 10:40 am
I still dont understand how did they decide he is dead if they have no body? And what does pathological findings mean?
I just read this on yeshiva world: "While the Goldin’s sat shiva after IDF Chief Rabbi Brigadier-General Rafi Peretz pronounced their son dead based on pathological findings at the scene, the body was not recovered and there was no levaya. They do not have a kever for their son."
here is the whole article: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com......dpuf
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freidasima
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Wed, Aug 06 2014, 10:46 am
There are slivers of tissue found and tons of blood, one takes some and does a DNA test and from that can conclude who it is from. Depending on the amount of blood and where the tissues are from or tiny pieces of body one can halochically conclude that without that part of the body the person is no longer alive. An example is brain tissue. If there is "brain" splattered all over the place with a lot of blood one may conclude that the person has is brain shot out and is no longer alive.
I know. Too much detail. I wish I didn't know as well but I do.
The Chevra Kadisha has burial pits in which they bury all sorts of things. Limbs amputated from operations, fetuses aborted, children who die before 30 days, miscarriages, and body parts, tissues etc. They aren't buried in a full funeral but rather with a religious ceremony in a mass grave. Every major cemetery has these, in my capacity at work we once had a tour of a major cemetery and the chevra kadisha showed us these pits, and explained what goes in there, how and when.
This, I assume is how they determined his death, and why there was no funeral, because there wasn't a single piece big enough to warrant a full burial, the pieces, blood, tissue, was examined and then eventually given kever yisroel in one of these pits. But one couldn't hold a full funeral.
Many of us applaud the courage of the rabbanut to declare him dead and not have a terrible repeat of the cases of the MIAs that we have from previous wars. Here at least we had something to hold on to and start a process, tissue, blood. There we had absolutely nothing physical and therefore couldn't start the process even.
HYD of all of them.
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out-of-towner
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Wed, Aug 06 2014, 10:48 am
amother wrote: | I still dont understand how did they decide he is dead if they have no body? And what does pathological findings mean?
I just read this on yeshiva world: "While the Goldin’s sat shiva after IDF Chief Rabbi Brigadier-General Rafi Peretz pronounced their son dead based on pathological findings at the scene, the body was not recovered and there was no levaya. They do not have a kever for their son."
here is the whole article: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com......dpuf |
AFAIK there was a levaya, as they did manage to get some of his body for burial. I even saw pictures. It was very sad!
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