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Shaking hands /yichud with transgender
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 4:50 pm
Heyaaa wrote:
I wouldn't act towards them as if they were that original gender but in my mind they will be the other gender.

A pattern I've seen nowadays that the only ones who have to be sensitive are the conservatives and the religious. The sensitivity should go both ways and somehow it doesn't.


That's ridiculous.

In the United States today, a pharmacist can refuse to fill your prescription because it offends his or her religious sensibilities. Corporations are allowed to choose a religion, and to refuse to offer medical insurance that included drugs or services that violate its religious "beliefs."

But a bit of kindness goes a long way in this world. (And I do recognize that you say that you would treat a transgendered person commensurate with their chosen identity, which is what I mean.)
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 5:24 pm
sequoia wrote:
What you write is not logical. Everyone has to be sensitive, not just the conservatives and the religious. It goes both ways. How are transgender people being insensitive to YOU? By their existence? Where is the analogy?


No their existence does not offend me. An analogy would be if dh says he doesn't shake women's hands and a female to male wanted to shake his hand. The media would be up in arms and he/she would probably sue him for idk what.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 5:30 pm
Heyaaa wrote:
No their existence does not offend me. An analogy would be if dh says he doesn't shake women's hands and a female to male wanted to shake his hand. The media would be up in arms and he/she would probably sue him for idk what.


HE would not sue him; he would have no case. You know that.

The f to m transgender person that I know has a beard, body hair, and a typically male appearance, and like all normal people doesn't talk about his surgery to random strangers. So I am not really picturing the scenario with your husband. But any rate, EVEN if your husband found out and started treating him differently, it would be very wrong and hurtful, but it still wouldn't be grounds for a lawsuit.
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Mommy3.5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 5:48 pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....dical feminist don't consider Transgender M-F women.....
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centurion




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 6:54 pm
I don't know what the halachic stance is but my policy is not to shake hands with anyone, female from birth (a new FFB?) included. why? because the whole, "I don't shake hands with men, I do shake hands with women" gets complicated. a blanket statement of "I don't shake hands" requires less explanation.
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bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 7:12 pm
Mommy3.5 wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelsie-brynn-jones/transexclusionary-radical-terf_b_5632332.htmladical feminist don't consider Transgender M-F women.....


After clicking your link, I'm shocked at how OUT OF CONTEXT your comment was.

The headline itself was "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism: What Exactly Is It, And Why Does It Hurt?"

So if your comment was that "feminists" (a huge and varied group) don't consider trans women to be female, then... get your reading comprehension checked.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 9:01 pm
debsey wrote:
I go to a secular all women gym. I HOPE this never comes up, because then where will I go to the gym????? I'm not kidding - this is something that worries me.
debsey



PinkFridge wrote:
We can open a can of worms about people transitioning, or deciding on a new identity without surgical changing. But my gut reaction was that it would a) be hurtful, b) in a professional setting because of a) risky to do otherwise rather than how the person identifies him/herself. If I knew I would be in this situation I would ask a shaila and if I didn't have the opportunity, do what I would do with the kavana that I'm acting halachically.

ETA: re acting halachically. Yes, I believe in treating every tzelem Elokim with dignity, but my primary kavana would be that I am acting halachically. If I wouldn't shake hands, I would be as gracious in my refusal as possible.


Someone at the gym asked me what would I do if a transgendered MF woman would join. This was at the height of the controversy when Fallon Fox (a transgendered MF) fighter joined the UFC, and many female fighters wouldn't fight her or let her in the locker room. It was all over the news.
I said I would have to ask a rabbi, but if according to Jewish law I would not be allowed to share a locker room with that person, then I just would have to find another gym. I made it clear - it's not judgement about life choices- it's that according to Jewish law, the birth gender is what would determine whether or not I could share a locker room with the person. However, I'm not entirely sure of the halacha, so I'd ask.
I really really hope this stays in the realm of the academic question because I love my gym..........
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amother


 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 9:20 pm
I went to Stern and took several classes with a transgender MTF professor. I asked a shaila at the time about shaking hands/yichud and was told to treat as a man- so no shaking hands and keep the door open if we're meeting. That doesn't contradict the fact that I used female pronouns for her because that is what she wanted people to do. BTW, she was totally understanding about the halachik issues- she is, after all, in a Jewish university. So who cares what she wants to be called, no skin off my back to do as she wishes in that respect. Trans people want to be related to as the gender they present, and the only area where it might be an issue is in terms of negiah, and obviously you have to follow your psak. But other than that, be a mensch, use the pronouns/names the person prefers, and don't cause anyone pain.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 9:28 pm
I'm no expert in the halacha of this, so I won't try and address that part.

All I know is that I used to think things were very black and white, until I met my friend Kathy. She was born with XXY chromosomes. She always looked delicate and ladylike to me, and I was really surprised to hear that she had been raised as a boy.

Some people are born with birth defects, club foot, cleft palate, etc. Would you say that Hashem made a mistake? Would you say that they are perfect exactly the way they are, and should never get corrective surgery?

Kathy had a chromosomal defect that affected the development of her private parts (very underdeveloped and non functional), and her brain was wired to be feminine. I simply see her as someone who had corrective surgery, so that she could live a normal life.

She was never militant, never political, never insisted that she get special rights for anything. All she wanted was to have her outside match her insides, and to be accepted as a human being.

My friend Max is F-M, and for years has wanted to convert to Judaism. He was told that he cannot because of his surgeries. He is absolutely heartbroken about this, but is trying to accept that Hashem wants him to be a Noachide in this lifetime. He's trying to come to terms with why that is, and what the larger message is for his life.

(Before you go wondering how I know all these trans people, it's not like I "hang out in those circles". I met Kathy years ago when I lived in NYC, and I met Max online on a conservative politics message board. He didn't tell me he was trans until after the first year that we had been talking, so it's not like he was flaunting it. He actually hates "identity politics".)
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Dina_B613




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 11:49 pm
[quote="PinkFridge"]

ETA: re acting halachically. Yes, I believe in treating every tzelem Elokim with dignity, but my primary kavana would be that I am acting halachically. If I wouldn't shake hands, I would be as gracious in my refusal as possible.[/quote]

Umm... isn't treating everyone with dignity and like they are made b'tzelem Elokim PART OF halacha? Or did I miss something?
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Dina_B613




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 11:54 pm
I once went into my single-relations gym and thought I saw a transgender (M2F) woman! I was a bit freaked out, but just acted normal. I started talking to the woman when she was using a machine next to mine, and saw her up close. Turns out that she was a grandmother of 8, an Orthodox woman, who just liked to use scary colors for her eyeshadow and had somewhat 'manly' features. I can't imagine what would have happened if I'd had the gall to say something to her.

FYI - Some people who we might think of as "changing" genders may actually be born with born types of organs, and are talked about in the Talmud and other sources. Even in modern times, this often isn't "caught" until the person goes to have children and discovers that they have non-normative body parts for people of their assigned gender. These people (according to many Halachic opinions) can choose which gender, so even if someone "switches" it doesn't mean that he or she is being disrespectful of G-d. Chas v'shalom that we should not give someone the benefit of the doubt. Shake their hand and move on.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 07 2014, 11:59 pm
Dina_B613 wrote:
Umm... isn't treating everyone with dignity and like they are made b'tzelem Elokim PART OF halacha? Or did I miss something?


Obviously... But you can't use dignity as an excuse to not follow halacha. If the halacha is (I'm making this up btw) that you can't dance with a male to female transgender individual, you can't just decide on your own that because that individual is made btzelem elokim you will dance with her anyway.
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Dina_B613




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 08 2014, 12:04 am
MaBelleVie - You also can't and shouldn't use being a bigot, conservative beliefs, etc as an excuse not to seek the opinion that will allow you to treat someone else with dignity.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Aug 08 2014, 12:14 am
I just heard a very interesting shiur from Rebbetzin Heller, you can find it on torahanytime.com (you have to create a login)

Anyhow, it was in a Q&A session at the end & she said that just as the child of two alchoholic parents has something like an 80% chance of becoming an alcoholic, nobody is going to tell them they may as well go ahead and drink.

So too, everyone has their nisayon in life and their job is to find out how to live as Hashem wants them to, in spite of or especially because of the way they were born. (Though she wasn't actually talking about TG but the other "topic which must not be named", but possibly it applies in a similar way).
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mille




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 08 2014, 12:26 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I'm no expert in the halacha of this, so I won't try and address that part.

All I know is that I used to think things were very black and white, until I met my friend Kathy. She was born with XXY chromosomes. She always looked delicate and ladylike to me, and I was really surprised to hear that she had been raised as a boy.

Some people are born with birth defects, club foot, cleft palate, etc. Would you say that Hashem made a mistake? Would you say that they are perfect exactly the way they are, and should never get corrective surgery?

Kathy had a chromosomal defect that affected the development of her private parts (very underdeveloped and non functional), and her brain was wired to be feminine. I simply see her as someone who had corrective surgery, so that she could live a normal life.

She was never militant, never political, never insisted that she get special rights for anything. All she wanted was to have her outside match her insides, and to be accepted as a human being.


I've done a lot of prior research on intersex children and gender identity. It's really interesting and really controversial... Especially in cases where infants are born with ambiguous genitals, generally the doctors present will make a decision (or have the parents make a decision) of "which way to go" in terms of genitalia. No matter what they do, the genitalia will be non-functional, but it is purely to help raise a child with a certain gender identity and without ambiguity. It works sometimes, but other times it is devastating.

Imagine right now your 'female-ness' and how you feel like a woman and have always felt like a girl/woman, and how you can't imagine what it would be like to feel like a man. Now imagine that when you were an infant, a doctor fashioned a pen*s out of some flaps of skin you had down there and told your parents that you should be raised as a boy. Imagine feeling female with every fiber of your being, but your body disagrees. (Although if I remember correctly in my research, it's usually that the reverse is true -- it's easier to "make a girl" than a boy, and it's usually that the "girls" feel like "boys") Imagine if everyone INSISTED on calling you he, calling you Shlomo instead of Shaindy... And no matter what you said, they won't stop. And to top it off, they insist that "God made you a boy, NOT a girl". I'm sure you'd be angry and hurt. Just like the people who are forced into this situation.

It's a very, very difficult position to be in. I don't envy anyone. Of course we should treat those born with XXY chromosomes and transgender people with the utmost compassion and respect. They have a difficult lot in life.

I'm so glad some people here get it.
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melbee




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 08 2014, 12:53 pm
My friend from high school transitioned M to F, and at the time DH and I asked a shaila of our Rav about how this would change things in re shomer negia. We were told that unfortunately neither of us could have physical contact with her anymore, as for me she was still physically male, and for DH it would appear as if he were shaking hands or hugging a woman and that could constitute maaris ayin. We respect her choice though and are still friends.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 08 2014, 1:58 pm
I will agree with MaBelleVie. I have some humility, enough to accept the possibility that the best thing to do halachically is not necessarily what I think is the best thing to do. If I ask the shaila of someone who has earned my respect and get such an answer, my first reaction will be to do a reality check. Maybe, just maybe, I'm not the arbiter in chief.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 08 2014, 2:12 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I will agree with MaBelleVie. I have some humility, enough to accept the possibility that the best thing to do halachically is not necessarily what I think is the best thing to do. If I ask the shaila of someone who has earned my respect and get such an answer, my first reaction will be to do a reality check. Maybe, just maybe, I'm not the arbiter in chief.


But I have every faith that whatever you do, you would do it with kindness, dignity and respect.

Look, I shake hands. My rabbis have no halachic problem with that. Yours do. I've got to respect that.

But there's a real difference between gently refraining from shaking hands, and making a show of it. Or embarrassing a person. And certainly a difference between refusing to shake Laura's hand because she used to be known as Steve, and your rabbis tell you that you shouldn't, and markedly calling her by her former name and using the pronoun "he."
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 10 2014, 9:17 am
Barbara wrote:
But I have every faith that whatever you do, you would do it with kindness, dignity and respect.

Look, I shake hands. My rabbis have no halachic problem with that. Yours do. I've got to respect that.

But there's a real difference between gently refraining from shaking hands, and making a show of it. Or embarrassing a person. And certainly a difference between refusing to shake Laura's hand because she used to be known as Steve, and your rabbis tell you that you shouldn't, and markedly calling her by her former name and using the pronoun "he."


Some RW poskim allow it for business purposes. So for some people in delicate positions, this whole discussion could be moot anyway.

ETA: And thanks for your vote of confidence in me Tongue Out


Last edited by PinkFridge on Sun, Aug 10 2014, 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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mdoif




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 10 2014, 10:57 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I'm no expert in the halacha of this, so I won't try and address that part.

All I know is that I used to think things were very black and white, until I met my friend Kathy. She was born with XXY chromosomes. She always looked delicate and ladylike to me, and I was really surprised to hear that she had been raised as a boy.

Some people are born with birth defects, club foot, cleft palate, etc. Would you say that Hashem made a mistake? Would you say that they are perfect exactly the way they are, and should never get corrective surgery?

Kathy had a chromosomal defect that affected the development of her private parts (very underdeveloped and non functional), and her brain was wired to be feminine. I simply see her as someone who had corrective surgery, so that she could live a normal life.

She was never militant, never political, never insisted that she get special rights for anything. All she wanted was to have her outside match her insides, and to be accepted as a human being.

My friend Max is F-M, and for years has wanted to convert to Judaism. He was told that he cannot because of his surgeries. He is absolutely heartbroken about this, but is trying to accept that Hashem wants him to be a Noachide in this lifetime. He's trying to come to terms with why that is, and what the larger message is for his life.

(Before you go wondering how I know all these trans people, it's not like I "hang out in those circles". I met Kathy years ago when I lived in NYC, and I met Max online on a conservative politics message board. He didn't tell me he was trans until after the first year that we had been talking, so it's not like he was flaunting it. He actually hates "identity politics".)


There are many halachic discussions about an androgynous (hermaphrodite) - someone who has both male and female genitalia - and the generally accepted psak is that such people are considered 'a being in their own right' (I.e. neither female nor male), with the chumros of both genders. So an androgynous would have to for example eat in the sukkah but for a male to marry one is a safek of mishkav zochor.

I don't know whether your friend Kathy was a halachic androgynous, but you see it's not necessarily as simple an issue of having corrective surgery.
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