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-> Children's Health
amother
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 Fri, Aug 15 2014, 2:12 pm
| amother wrote: | Attention Amother in vaccine development...a serious question here...
Alot of the antivax camp claim that they are healthier/ have stronger immune systems/no auto immune diseases etc etc due to.not being vaxed. ... Summerrain claims no research has been done to see if that's true or if there are any long term effects (not just thr small percentage of ppl that have an initial reaction). Is that true? Has there been any longitudinal studies on long term health rates or studies that research autoimmune diseases or asthma or what not in vaccinated vs non vaccinated population? |
The argument supporting such a fact is that autoimmunity tends to show up around vaccines. The argument against this theory is that autoimmune disease show up in the first years of life.
Longitudinal research in this is hampered by a lack of proper controls and family history. You would need to find someone vaccinated and not that are comparable. For example, I have a close cousin with MS. We would need to find someone comparable to my strong family history to have control. You cannot use someone who has no illness in the family as a control for mine. Thus, there are no good controlled studies on the subject. Therefore, both "sides" put out papers supporting there opinion. Neither side is good science on this subject. (IMHO, others would disagree.)
The main point to remember is that autoimmunity is genetic. If it is in your genes or you get a bad enough bug to convince your immune system to attack itself, it will. If you don't have the genes and you don't get really bad bugs, its unlikely you will find autoimmunity. Are they healthier? There is no evidence that I have found to support this claim. We believe in one Hashem. A Buddhist would tell you we are wrong. Same idea. They believe they are healthier so, they say so.
In a mouse study 20 years ago, they gave tons of mice vaccines. They were two types of mice (1) normal healthy mice (2) mice that spontaneously develop lupus. These were not vaccines of today, a much stronger vaccine. But, they found healthy mice remained healthy and lupus mice developed lupus.
Anyway, back to work for me.
-amother in vaccine development
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Barbara
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 2:24 pm
| summerrain107 wrote: | Since 1993, the CDC reported a total of 23 deaths (in the US) from measles, mumps, and rubella, combined. On the other hand, since March 2013, the mmr vaccine resulted in 56 deaths and 842 injuries. You do the math  |
But that's because MOST people vaccinate (the reason that there are so few cases, and so few deaths from measles). IOW, you are relying upon others to take the risk for you.
Before the vaccine, nearly everyone got measles. In the early 20th century, about 2.6% of those people died. But, hey, nothing to worry about, right?
By the late 1950s, the incidence of death was about .1% -- that is, 1 death per 1000 reported cases. But the risk of serious complications remained high.
YOU do the math. The vaccine PREVENTS death and PREVENTS serious injury. If it was no longer administered, there would be a heckuva lot more deaths.
ETA, there are about 4 million births in the US each year. Assuming 80% MMR vaccination (which is lower than actual, but I'm using a low number to HELP you), that's 3,200,000 vaccination. Making the fatality rate .00175% or less than 2 in 100,000. Are you still doing the math, with a silly winky emoticon?
Last edited by Barbara on Fri, Aug 15 2014, 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Barbara
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 2:42 pm
| summerrain107 wrote: | Ugh, "Dr. amother," like I said before, I've done my research and I'm not gonna do yours. You can research those questions on your own time. I encourage every mommy to do so  .
Btw, I'm super nice in real life. Lol.
Now back to the "mean" me:
Anyway, I'm kinda glad that the FDA hasn't researched whether vaccines have a negative effect on our childrens health. That would obviously just be a horrible waste of time.
I have a way better idea. The FDA should spend more time studying the "dumb" gene. For example, there's this "dumb" doctor (Mayer Eisenstein) in Chicago that doesn't believe in vaxing. He's had over 30,000 patients (children) over the years and no cases of autism. How can this be possible, when autism currently strikes 1 in every 50 children?
Everyone knows that there's no link between vaccinations and autism. And everyone knows that people who don't vax their kids are "dumb." So I bet that there's a genetic link between dumb parents and lower autism rates. Yeah, that's gotta be it... |
This is an article from The Onion, right? Making fun of anti-vaxer rhetoric?
Suggesting that there's a link between vaccines and autism, which has been discredited every which way to Sunday.
Clever, though. The FDA hasn't researched .... when we all know that the FDA evaluates research done by others.
But honestly, its not nice of you to make fun of anti-vaxers in that way, making them sound like morons. I've had discussions with many of them, and some really have done their research.
And, really, Mayer Einstein? The one who "treats" autism with a drug used to castrate z3x offenders?
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Elbowmac
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:12 pm
| Barbara wrote: | This is an article from The Onion, right? Making fun of anti-vaxer rhetoric?
Suggesting that there's a link between vaccines and autism, which has been discredited every which way to Sunday.
Clever, though. The FDA hasn't researched .... when we all know that the FDA evaluates research done by others.
But honestly, its not nice of you to make fun of anti-vaxers in that way, making them sound like morons. I've had discussions with many of them, and some really have done their research.
And, really, Mayer Einstein? The one who "treats" autism with a drug used to castrate z3x offenders? |
To clarify, and I might have misunderstood, but I don't think Summerrain was trying to poke fun at anti-vaxers with the above post. I don't think it was meant to be taken sarcastically. On the contrary, I think she presented her personal views as anti-vax, and the above post was meant to support this view. And I certainly might be misreading, but I thought she was sincerely lauding Mayer Einstein...
I'm bad at detecting internet sarcasm, however, so my apologies if I am way off base here.
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sequoia
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:15 pm
| Elbowmac wrote: | To clarify, and I might have misunderstood, but I don't think Summerrain was trying to poke fun at anti-vaxers with the above post. I don't think it was meant to be taken sarcastically. On the contrary, I think she presented her personal views as anti-vax, and the above post was meant to support this view. And I certainly might be misreading, but I thought she was sincerely lauding Mayer Einstein...
I'm bad at detecting internet sarcasm, however, so my apologies if I am way off base here. |
Yep, you are pretty bad, because it is Barbara who was being sarcastic.
I am just amazed at how sincerely people mistake satire and facetiousness for the real thing. Over and over.
Don't read the Onion or the Daily Currant, you'll think it's all true.
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Barbara
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:15 pm
| Elbowmac wrote: | To clarify, and I might have misunderstood, but I don't think Summerrain was trying to poke fun at anti-vaxers with the above post. I don't think it was meant to be taken sarcastically. On the contrary, I think she presented her personal views as anti-vax, and the above post was meant to support this view. And I certainly might be misreading, but I thought she was sincerely lauding Mayer Einstein...
I'm bad at detecting internet sarcasm, however, so my apologies if I am way off base here. |
A group I used to participate in used the acronym SDNWOI -- Sarcasm Does Not Work on the Internet.
Sorry.
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Barbara
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:16 pm
| sequoia wrote: | Yep, you are pretty bad, because it is Barbara who was being sarcastic.
I am just amazed at how sincerely people mistake satire and facetiousness for the real thing. Over and over.
Don't read the Onion or the Daily Currant, you'll think it's all true. |
Hey, there are people on my Facebook feed who think some of that stuff is real.
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Scrabble123
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:18 pm
| Barbara wrote: | | Hey, there are people on my Facebook feed who think some of that stuff is real. |
It isn't?.... 
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Elbowmac
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:21 pm
| sequoia wrote: | Yep, you are pretty bad, because it is Barbara who was being sarcastic.
I am just amazed at how sincerely people mistake satire and facetiousness for the real thing. Over and over.
Don't read the Onion or the Daily Currant, you'll think it's all true. |
Bwahaha! Amazing. I told you I'm bad at this stuff :-)
Sorry Barbara, I didn't mean to miss your sarcasm.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:24 pm
| Barbara wrote: |
And, really, Mayer Einstein? The one who "treats" autism with a drug used to castrate z3x offenders? |
[indigo]I didn't get the chance to research him last night... Barbara, while your assertion flies in the face of SummerRain's claim that his practice has no autistic patients, ?!
[/indigo]
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amother
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:29 pm
http://articles.chicagotribune.....tocol
Sidestepping that pesky little problem of mercury poisoning presenting symptoms that do not even remotely resemble autism.... my Gott in Himmel. These poor children already have such a heavy load to bear.
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Barbara
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:33 pm
| amother wrote: | I didn't get the chance to research him last night... Barbara, while your assertion flies in the face of SummerRain's claim that his practice has no autistic patients, ?!
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Not really. He claims that none of his patients who don't vaccinate are autistic. These kids could be kids who were vaccinated. [The guy is a quack, but the fact you cite doesn't prove it.]
BTW, even the militant anti-vax sites concede that there are unvaccinated kids with autism.
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Barbara
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:35 pm
| amother wrote: | http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-05-21/news/chi-autism-lupron-may21_1_autism-one-conference-autistic-children-lupron-protocol
Sidestepping that pesky little problem of mercury poisoning presenting symptoms that do not even remotely resemble autism.... my Gott in Himmel. These poor children already have such a heavy load to bear. |
Wouldn't the peskier problem be that the autism rate continued to rise after the removal of thimerosal from childhood vaccines?
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amother
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:39 pm
You know, THIS is what bothers me about the anti-vax movement. Not the parents who research the pros and cons and decide that they don't feel that vaccines are worth the risk. The parents who don't do any research into chemical composition, method of delivery, or on whether or not the symptoms of mercury poisoning are even remotely similar to any presentation of autism. The parents like SummerRain who run fast and loose with facts and their children's health... anyone who did as much research as she claims would have been able to string together two intelligible sentences to rebut Vaccinologist Amother, or answer my challenge question on why my region has a low-vax/high-ASD rate and Mississippi is high-vax/low-ASD (hint for SummerRain if you're still playing along, there's a perfectly logical answer that actually supports, or at the very least doesn't diminish, your claim that vaccines cause autism). If you want to be ignorant on your own health, fine, but for the love of God don't do this to innocent children.
(Disclaimer: I am equally infuriated by parents who deny the reality of adverse/allergic reactions to vaccines.)
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sequoia
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:43 pm
You can be allergic to anything! Nuts are very healthy. Penicillin saves lives. Furry cats are cute. None of these things are bad in and of themselves because some people are allergic to them.
What has that got to do with the "omg the evil FDA is trying to poison us" position?
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amother
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:46 pm
| Barbara wrote: | | Wouldn't the peskier problem be that the autism rate continued to rise after the removal of thimerosal from childhood vaccines? |
Since I don't think that SummerRain is ever going to respond (and that's not necessarily a bad thing), a lot of the increase in ASD is due to better and more wide-spread diagnostics. Diagnosis rates also vary based on local resources. For example, Mississippi (with a 99+% vax rate) is extremely resource-poor when it comes to developmental pediatrics and behavioral therapist. In contrast, my area (which has epidemic-level pertussis) has an overabundance of BCBAs and behavioral therapists, as well as parents with the time and resources to wonder if Little Johnny's poor social skills and shoddy eye contact are shyness or a high-functioning ASD. 50 years ago, if Johnny lived here his parents would attempt shaming him into "acting like a man" (standard parenting technique at the time). Today he'd get a social skills group an ABA.
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imokay
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:51 pm
| Dolly Welsh wrote: | | Tell me all about the elderly person who had not received the booster. I want to hear about that. |
A good half yr of horrible coughing fits, sometimes so bad that hatzolah needed to b called bc cudnt catch breath..... Hard to eat any solid foods bc if a coughing episode occured while chewing, wud lead to choking.... Cudnt go out much in public or to events bc what if coughing episode occured then..... Experience of incontinence from such forceful coughing..... Terrible rib pain from forceful coughing .... It was very tpugh both emotionally and physically.... Eventually coughing episodes decreased in occurrence and duration but still persised for a good year....
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amother
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 5:21 pm
| Barbara wrote: | Not really. He claims that none of his patients who don't vaccinate are autistic. These kids could be kids who were vaccinated. [The guy is a quack, but the fact you cite doesn't prove it.]
BTW, even the militant anti-vax sites concede that there are unvaccinated kids with autism. |
Barbara, I agree with you. My post didn't make much sense because I was stunned speechless. Castration drugs?!? Well, that's one way to up chelation.
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5*Mom
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Sat, Aug 16 2014, 3:03 pm
Some relevant facts about pertussis from the cdc.gov:
| cdc.gov wrote: | Q: Why are reported cases of pertussis increasing?
A: Since the early 1980s, there has been an overall trend of an increase in reported pertussis cases. Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years. But for the past 20-30 years, we've seen the peaks getting higher and overall case counts going up. There are several reasons that help explain why we're seeing more cases as of late. These include: increased awareness, improved diagnostic tests, better reporting, more circulation of the bacteria, and waning immunity.
When it comes to waning immunity, it seems that the acellular pertussis vaccine (DTaP) we use now may not protect for as long as the whole cell vaccine (DTP) we used to use. Throughout the 1990s, the US switched from using DTP to using DTaP for infants and children. Whole cell vaccines are associated with higher rates of minor and temporary side effects such as fever and pain and swelling at the injection site. Rare but serious neurologic adverse reactions including chronic neurological problems rarely occurred among children who had recently received whole cell vaccines. While studies have had inconsistent results that the vaccine could cause chronic neurological problems, public concern in the US and other countries led to a concerted effort to develop a vaccine with improved safety. Due to these concerns, along with the availability of a safe and effective acellular vaccine, the US switched to acellular pertussis vaccines.
Q: I've heard about parents refusing to get their children vaccinated and travelers to the U.S. spreading disease; are they to blame for pertussis outbreaks?
A: Even though children who haven't received DTaP vaccines are at least 8 times more likely to get pertussis than children who received all 5 recommended doses of DTaP, they are not the driving force behind the large scale outbreaks or epidemics. However, their parents are putting them at greater risk of getting a serious pertussis infection and then possibly spreading it to other family or community members.
We often see people blaming pertussis outbreaks on people coming to the US from other countries. This is not the case. Pertussis was never eliminated from the US like measles or polio, so there's always the chance for it to get into a community. Plus, every country vaccinates against pertussis. |
While it can sometimes feel good to focus on and blame one factor -- unvaccinated children -- pertussis transmission is so much more complex than that. DTaP is only 80-90% effective, it only provides full immunity for a very limited number of years (which means that most adults are not immune and therefore can and do spread pertussis), most cases are mild and look like a bad cold for which most people don't quarantine themselves, leading to further transmission... Pertussis is really not the disease to blame on the unvaxed child population, as the CDC confirms.
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Frumdoc
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Sat, Aug 16 2014, 7:56 pm
(With the exception of Think 1st, I stay off these threads, as I'm not a pediatrician or vaccine specialist so have no expertise other than general medical education, but I want to say 3 things.
1. Amother in vaccine development - you are amazing! Cool, rational and seemjngly unfazed by the ongoing assault which gets pretty vitriolic. Plus you explain things beautifully. I'm a big fan!   
2. Googling around, I've ofund a great new science blog with lots of fun quack dissection to follow, so thanks for that!
http://scienceblogs.com/channel/medicine/
3. Wow, Mayer Eisenstein takes quackery and bad practice to another level, plus his financial dealings are well, fraudulent would be the polite way to describe them. Yet another one for quackwatch.
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co......gain/
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#.....2784/
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