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Mishpacha article - No Shidduch Crisis by SY Rechnitz
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 11 2014, 10:16 pm
Jeanette wrote:
.

People seem to think that older singles are a necessary price we have to pay to preserve the shidduch system. Please tell me why the shidduch system is worth preserving and why these older singles have to be the korbonos.


I don't think that. I guess I'm not people. I also think that by the mid 20s singles events, dinners, are great ideas. Based on my experience in shidduchim 30 years ago, in the system, I don't think the system is terrible. However as it's evolved there have been terrible mutations, like the superficialities people will base their decisions on .
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the world's best mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 11 2014, 10:31 pm
The obvious reason for the Shidduch crisis is that there are so many girls nowadays who either:

1- are larger than a size 2, or

2-don't have rich families who can support them and buy them a large apartment/house and nice furniture.

I mean, how can anyone be expected to marry these girls? Goodness. Rolling Eyes
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 11 2014, 10:34 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Quote:
it is also feeding into the shidduch system, which allows a lot of dysfunctional parents to get in the way of legitimately good matches. people are held hostage by crazy demands from parents. and the whole shidduch system prevents some people from just meeting their bashert socially, which would really help a lot of people.


Agreed. Marriage is a mitzvah. It is absurd when our gedorim around this mitzvah (to prevent people from mingling and socializing inappropriately) prevent the actual fulfillment of the mitzvah.

Does the shidduch system exist to bring people together or to keep them apart?

We need to get it out of our heads that there is something wrong or sinful about young men and women meeting each other in some informal setting, striking up a relationship, developing an interest in each other and getting married.

When people are not allowed to meet in a natural way you have this highly UNNATURAL situation of young people in their 20's and 30's who have never had a normal relationship with anyone of the opposite gender.

People seem to think that older singles are a necessary price we have to pay to preserve the shidduch system. Please tell me why the shidduch system is worth preserving and why these older singles have to be the korbonos.


If the Gedarim prevent Shidduchim, do communities with more lax standards have more marriages and less singles?

Just some extra food for thought Wink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 11 2014, 10:35 pm
gittelchana wrote:
The Torah puts a big emphasis on marriage. Mitzvah #1 can only legitimately be fulfilled through marriage Wink


well, yes. but our communities take it to an extreme. I'd say labeling the state of being single "the shidduch crisis" is a telling symptom. women, for example, are not obligated to marry or have children. historically, it was safest for women to marry, so it made sense to have that sense of urgency about marriage. but marriage is no longer a protection for women, and many women just don't want to marry. our communities have no place for women like that, or men for that matter. marriage and reproduction are important, but there are hundreds of other mitzvos out there. I think it's time we made space in our communities for singles to be valued. if those singles are interested in marrying, I'm all for it, but I think we need to de-yentize ourselves a bit. enough "Im yirtzeh Hashem by yous" to 35 year olds. enough setting up older women with men who aren't cut out to be good husbands. enough "nebach"ing behind people's backs. you know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see community events where single people are allowed to be honored. there are some wonderful doctors, lawyers, educators out there who are single who deserve to be recognized. no more disallowing single guys to officially give shiur in yeshivas. his learning accomplishments are not nothing unless he's married. and no more dictating that a woman in her thirties can't go out with a guy she met at work because he wasn't checked out through a shadchan.

oh, and if we're not willing to change our outlook on things, I have a surefire way to solve the issue: polygamy. bring it back, the decree against it ended. but that would be a legal issue, and it would have to mean the end of the kollel system as we know it. oh, and it wouldn't help guys in communities where they have the issue. it's not only girls, folks.
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 11 2014, 10:41 pm
gittelchana wrote:
If the Gedarim prevent Shidduchim, do communities with more lax standards have more marriages and less singles?

Just some extra food for thought Wink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA


no clue about statistics, but I don't think numbers of marriages matter necessarily. I think those communities are less panic-stricken by the idea of not getting married by 23. and that means they don't subscribe to the "shidduch crisis" theory, which is what we're discussing.
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 11 2014, 10:48 pm
gittelchana wrote:
If the Gedarim prevent Shidduchim, do communities with more lax standards have more marriages and less singles?

Just some extra food for thought Wink http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA


Who's talking about being friends?
We're talking about finding a partner to marry.
If you've been through the shidduch system and it isn't working, it's time to start thinking out of the box. Not do the same insanity over and over and hope it works this time. Or ridiculous things like insisting that people date people of certain ages or that people get married before they feel ready.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Aug 11 2014, 10:51 pm
Yes the shidduch crisis is the fault of the older single men. They have no excuse, it is their mitzvah to get married and they have no shortage of women to date. Maybe they should be offering the money to them if they get married within a certain time frame.
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joss3




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 11 2014, 11:26 pm
I really believe the reason for the so called shidduch crisis is people being too picky with whom they date, thereby not meeting their intended. (I don't mean being picky after they've already met)

Hashem gives everyone a spouse when they are born, it's up to them to just find each other! My close friend married a ger, another friend a boy from halfway across the world, and I married someone so not my "family's type".

Had we been close minded and not agreed to date each other we wouldn't be married!
The whole age gap thing is ridiculous.
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nechamad




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 12:30 am
Years ago there were mixed tables at weddings, so at least singles could meet there. Maybe that's a place to start.
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 1:52 am
mummiedearest wrote:
well, yes. but our communities take it to an extreme. I'd say labeling the state of being single "the shidduch crisis" is a telling symptom. women, for example, are not obligated to marry or have children. historically, it was safest for women to marry, so it made sense to have that sense of urgency about marriage. but marriage is no longer a protection for women, and many women just don't want to marry. our communities have no place for women like that, or men for that matter. marriage and reproduction are important, but there are hundreds of other mitzvos out there. I think it's time we made space in our communities for singles to be valued. if those singles are interested in marrying, I'm all for it, but I think we need to de-yentize ourselves a bit. enough "Im yirtzeh Hashem by yous" to 35 year olds. enough setting up older women with men who aren't cut out to be good husbands. enough "nebach"ing behind people's backs. you know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see community events where single people are allowed to be honored. there are some wonderful doctors, lawyers, educators out there who are single who deserve to be recognized. no more disallowing single guys to officially give shiur in yeshivas. his learning accomplishments are not nothing unless he's married. and no more dictating that a woman in her thirties can't go out with a guy she met at work because he wasn't checked out through a shadchan.

oh, and if we're not willing to change our outlook on things, I have a surefire way to solve the issue: polygamy. bring it back, the decree against it ended. but that would be a legal issue, and it would have to mean the end of the kollel system as we know it. oh, and it wouldn't help guys in communities where they have the issue. it's not only girls, folks.


I happen to agree with most of what you write. I was just pointing out an important point as to why marriage is so central. I'm all for honoring people based on their own merits.

I personally don't think there is a Shidduch crisis. Yes, there are those who unfortunately haven't found their match yet and are waiting to do so. But...

1) There always have been.
2) There always have been poor people.
3) There always have been unhealthy people.
4) And many more examples....

But in general, in the mindset of people, if it's ME who suffers, it's a crisis. If it's you who suffers, it's not that bad. Either way, it doesn't make an objective crisis. So I'll repeat the question I asked on a different thread: how do we define crisis and how/when does this crisis become crisis no more? And why isn't there a crisis for all the other terrible things. People struggle to feed their families and pay tuition, people struggle with physical, mental and emotional health, with Shalom Bayis, with difficult children and in-laws and the list goes on and on and on..... Crying Crying Crying
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 1:54 am
Jeanette wrote:
Who's talking about being friends?
We're talking about finding a partner to marry.
If you've been through the shidduch system and it isn't working, it's time to start thinking out of the box. Not do the same insanity over and over and hope it works this time. Or ridiculous things like insisting that people date people of certain ages or that people get married before they feel ready.


The video is some extra food for thought. It gives a little appreciation for the Gedarim. That's all.
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Imogen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 2:17 am
When asked to comment on the challenges of being a youthful and possibly immature 20 year old chatan, the mishpacha article offered the comparison of 20 year olds in the IDF rising to the challenge, well those brave young men have been through basic training, they are fighting for their country, not being urged without a trade or income to marry when they are barely out of high school/yeshiva and ill equipped to support a family. I found the comparison very unsettling, not to mention deeply painful with our beloved children in the IDF facing so many hardships. Marriage is something very different, it is not a military challenge or form of endurance for young sheltered bachurin to enlist into!!!

The ketubah stresses a husband will support a wife, the present shidduch system and the suggestions to get boys married even younger will put even more pressure on girls to waive their ketubah rights and enter a life time of financial commitment they cannot fully understand at so tender an age. Especially if their parents are the driving forces behind it all. We as women are entitled to work and earn our keep, we are entitled to our education but is it fair a young men of 20 are actively encouraged to look to our daughters to keep them in kollel and put food on the table all by themselves, unless of course the in- laws are being drafted into pay for a young family's upkeep. Is this fair to young Jewish girls seeking the early marriages so encouraged upon them from early childhood ?

The present shidduch crisis has been artificially created by people keen to create a form of social engineering out of the future of our young sons and daughters. The world of yeshivot and seminaries should be there to deepen the appreciation of our youth for marriage and commitment, not reduce the joy of finding one's beshert to a business venture complete with financial profiling and resumes.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 3:11 am
joss3 wrote:
I really believe the reason for the so called shidduch crisis is people being too picky with whom they date, thereby not meeting their intended. (I don't mean being picky after they've already met)

Hashem gives everyone a spouse when they are born, it's up to them to just find each other! My close friend married a ger, another friend a boy from halfway across the world, and I married someone so not my "family's type".

Had we been close minded and not agreed to date each other we wouldn't be married!
The whole age gap thing is ridiculous.


I agree that the shidduch crisis has to do with people being close-minded. This is not to say that if someone is in shidduchim for an extended period that they were close-minded but frequently it is because they weren't willing to look outside the box.

I have a friend who I cry about to my husband that she's not married and hasn't even gone on a date (after being in shidduchim for a bunch of years) and he reminds me that her family has slight yichus so they reject everyone who isn't name-brand enough, and anyone the parents don't reject her brother rejects because he doesn't like their personality. Then any of the men who do filter through, reject her because she isn't stick thin.

I think it would help the shidduch system tremendously if shidduchim would go through the boys and girls and not through the parents or siblings. Yes siblings and parents can have their input but the actual conversations with the shadchan would be mostly (or completely) through the daters.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 3:16 am
I'm the previous amother. When I got engaged, my parents were shocked. They said he was the last guy they thought I would marry.
Meanwhile he is EXACTLY what I told the shadchan I was looking for. If I had been describing a person, it's him I would've been describing. Hashem was so amazing to me because the shadchan had a boy that was exactly how I described and I know that's really unusual. But if I had been relying on shidduchim going through my parents I would still be single.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 5:57 am
PinkFridge wrote:
And do you think the age gap is the problem?


Yes. There may indeed be other minor problems which contribute to an individual staying single. Some people are just not cut out for marriage. Some people may not feel attracted to the opposite gender, for example. Some people are too picky. (boys, or their mothers, pickiness stems largely from knowing there is an almost unlimited pool of girls to date) Popular culture, and the internet no doubt contribute to unrealistic expectations. etc etc.

But to have such large numbers of perfectly normal wonderful girls not getting married - I have no doubt it is due to the age gap.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 5:59 am
mummiedearest wrote:
I believe that the "shidduch crisis" is actually an issue that stems from our communities' emphasis on marriage. basically, we put so much emphasis on getting married that there's no room for valuing single adults. based on that, people are desperate to get married at a young age (the age to be considered a spinster varies by community, but I'd say the average is still pretty young). the fact that the community has labeled this a "shidduch crisis" is very telling. I do not wish to minimize the pain felt by individuals having a hard time finding the right shidduch, btw. I'm saying that our outlook as a community leads to a lot of unhealthy expectations. I think the healthier thing would be to accept that there are always going to be older singles, though the numbers may vary. we need to value singles as contributing members of society, and we need to cut the pressure. this pressure is leading to all those unhealthy decisions we make (can't report molestation, it will affect the child's future shidduch chances, can't pull out of dysfunctional school, etc). it is also feeding into the shidduch system, which allows a lot of dysfunctional parents to get in the way of legitimately good matches. people are held hostage by crazy demands from parents. and the whole shidduch system prevents some people from just meeting their bashert socially, which would really help a lot of people. I think blaming the "crisis" on age differences is a blind, and I think we need to examine this problem a little differently.


So are you going to volunteer YOUR daughters or sisters to be those useful singles? Rolling Eyes
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 9:24 am
Raisin wrote:
So are you going to volunteer YOUR daughters or sisters to be those useful singles? Rolling Eyes


Scratching Head
I think she was just saying that we have to set a tone where a person can feel she can live productively, b'simchas hachaim regardless of her marital status (or if married, her parental status). If that's controversial something's wrong somewhere.
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imokay




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 9:38 am
Raisin wrote:
Yes. There may indeed be other minor problems which contribute to an individual staying single. Some people are just not cut out for marriage. Some people may not feel attracted to the opposite gender, for example. Some people are too picky. (boys, or their mothers, pickiness stems largely from knowing there is an almost unlimited pool of girls to date) Popular culture, and the internet no doubt contribute to unrealistic expectations. etc etc.

But to have such large numbers of perfectly normal wonderful girls not getting married - I have no doubt it is due to the age gap.


There r plenty of older single guys too. If it were simply the 'age gap' , this wudnt b the case.
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questioner




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:43 am
It was mentioned as a side point that a shadchan can book a ticket on Rechnitz's account to pay for an LA girl to go out in NY (without even telling him who she is etc). I was very impressed and I think it's a great idea that should definitely help these girls without risking a social engineering experiment gone awry. I'd love to think of more such ideas that really can be implemented.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:57 am
imokay wrote:
If it were simply an age gap issue, then all boys wud b married, leaving just the girls leftover. This isn't the case. There r plenty of older single guys. So clearly there r other reasons.
Ex: - parents doing the 'checking' and creating rigid criteria for potential mates.
-The whole learning boy is superior thing breeds a situation where the girls' family finances r of utmost importance (boys marrying younger, so even further from being able to support a family wud actually exacerbate this problem)
Also the boys r typically not encouraged to pursue a vocation, once again making finances important.
-the open approach to dating, where we r looking for soul connections and love and attraction and perfection (not saying this is wrong approach, just that it's a whole lot easier to marry a kid off if parents set it up and just need the consent from the child to make engagement official)
-some older singles have developed dating careers, where unwittingly they r unable to commit to a relationship

Just need to add, I am super impressed w rechnitz's generosity and innovation in trying to solve the problem! He sounds like an amazing person.


I actually agree with alot in this post.
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