Mishpacha article - No Shidduch Crisis by SY Rechnitz

busymom

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:57 am

sabich wrote:

When asked to comment on the challenges of being a youthful and possibly immature 20 year old chatan, the mishpacha article offered the comparison of 20 year olds in the IDF rising to the challenge, well those brave young men have been through basic training, they are fighting for their country, not being urged without a trade or income to marry when they are barely out of high school/yeshiva and ill equipped to support a family. I found the comparison very unsettling, not to mention deeply painful with our beloved children in the IDF facing so many hardships. Marriage is something very different, it is not a military challenge or form of endurance for young sheltered bachurin to enlist into!!!

The ketubah stresses a husband will support a wife, the present shidduch system and the suggestions to get boys married even younger will put even more pressure on girls to waive their ketubah rights and enter a life time of financial commitment they cannot fully understand at so tender an age. Especially if their parents are the driving forces behind it all. We as women are entitled to work and earn our keep, we are entitled to our education but is it fair a young men of 20 are actively encouraged to look to our daughters to keep them in kollel and put food on the table all by themselves, unless of course the in- laws are being drafted into pay for a young family's upkeep. Is this fair to young Jewish girls seeking the early marriages so encouraged upon them from early childhood ?

The present shidduch crisis has been artificially created by people keen to create a form of social engineering out of the future of our young sons and daughters. The world of yeshivot and seminaries should be there to deepen the appreciation of our youth for marriage and commitment, not reduce the joy of finding one's beshert to a business venture complete with financial profiling and resumes.

I actually think the IDF analogy was really on target. People DO rise to whatever challenge life presents. Years ago, most teenagers were working as apprentices or helping in the family business. The author also writes about his grandfather who began to support his family in his early teens after his father passed away. (I think that was the story.) Few people truly mature until they must handle real responsibilities. Most boys will remain immature as long as they live in a yeshiva environment. It takes going out into the real world and having responsibilities to grow up.

When I married my chassidishe husband, we were both 19. Within 1-2 years, that sheltered yeshiva boy had become a real man. I suspect that many 23 year old yeshiva "boys" are not very different on their wedding night than my husband was on ours. They also become true men only after they marry.

Most chassidishe men will begin working within 2 years of getting married. At 24, the ambitious, entrepreneurial types can be running their own businesses. A yeshiva guy getting married at 23 probably still needs to put in the "required" couple of years of post-chasunah learning before he can go to work, so financially, he's no better off than the chassidishe guy; everything is just happening a little later. (Now if he'd marry that 24-year-old girl who has some serious savings, that would be a different story! But typically, his wife has just as much saved up as the chassidishe girl who went straight to work after her high school graduation...)

ora_43

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 12:49 pm

I thought the numbers in the article seemed very un-crisis-like.

I mean, less than 30% of women aged 25 are not married. Meaning over 70% did marry by that age, in a country where the average college-educated woman marries years later. How is that OH THE HORRORS levels of singlehood???

He sounded so upset that "only" almost 20% of women who graduated high school all of three years ago are married by now. How many even started dating before age 20? How many are even dating now? I think it's perfectly normal to have started dating at 20 and simply not met and married the right person within a year. It's also perfectly normal to not be ready for marriage yet at age 21.

It seems clear to me that "only" 13 out of 72 young women being married is not due to the age gap. Even if there is an age gap contributing to the problem, still, if it were reasonable to expect that 21-year-old women with prospects for marriage be married already, you'd expect to see something more like 60 out of 72.

Last edited by ora_43 on Tue, Aug 12 2014, 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

questioner

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 12:52 pm

questioner wrote:

It was mentioned as a side point that a shadchan can book a ticket on Rechnitz's account to pay for an LA girl to go out in NY (without even telling him who she is etc). I was very impressed and I think it's a great idea that should definitely help these girls without risking a social engineering experiment gone awry. I'd love to think of more such ideas that really can be implemented.

One great idea would be that the BMG "freezer" doesn't apply if going out with a girl 22+.
Having the boys in the freezer for months not only keeps them off the market for longer but allows them the time to get hundreds of suggestions and pick through to find the best one. This isn't a mentality to encourage at the start of shidduchim.

It's also being taken for granted that because of the panic girls are starting shidduchim younger and there is no way to prevent it. If we could encourage girls to wait until even 20-21, they would mature, settle, earn some money, and level the age gap somewhat also. We are just fueling the panic by a chart in that article detailing the extent of the shidduch crisis including 20 yr olds in the figures.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 3:02 pm

busymom wrote:

The problem is, one leaves the army (and then may take a gap year or two). And AFA referencing people going to work, like my grandfather who also quit high school to help support his family, we've gotten a lot softer. We're on a different time table.

I don't have issues with younger boys dating if they have good middos and a sense of achrayus, even if not fully tested. Parents should know their kids. We do have to prepare our kids for it, and recognize that not every child will be ready. I see it with some of my own kids. One son was ready to date young, another not.

As for going out into the world - boys used to take on summer jobs. Now for many reasons many don't. However, I do know wonderful young men who didn't take summer jobs because of a short bein hazmanim and lack of appropriate jobs (is that a whole nother thread? Tongue Out

) who did work during the year - tutoring, haircuts, leining, shamesh work...all these things do build achrayus, confidence and skills.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 3:07 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I was surprised about the three year statistic and I felt like getting his number and telling him, "DON'T PANIC! DON'T PANIC!!!" But some of the other statistics were sobering. Again, engendering panic isn't helpful.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 3:10 pm

questioner wrote:

I think that the discussion of different type of yeshivos, some for dating boys, some for not addressed this. I found it interesting. I do hear from relatives in BMG now that it can be distracting.

Here's the thing about encouraging our girls to wait: I'm all for it. I think, especially for girls who go to seminary outside of their home country, the girls need time to decompress and get into their next act. I wouldn't ban dating earlier though.

allrgymama

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 3:16 pm

....and so many of these responses go back to a chanoch l'nar mentality. If we wait for our sons and daughters to enter the shidduch market when they're ready, while making sure that they're prepared for it (by teaching good Middos, effective communication, how to have a healthy relationship and to look for warning signs, general responsibility, financial responsibility and indipendence) then shidduchim redt would be more on the mark, with less pressure to just pick someone already - since you would be trusting your mature child to make the decision themselves - with (I would have to safely assume) fewer divorces within the first 5 years of marriage.

questioner

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 4:08 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

but BMG is already a yeshiva for dating boys besides for each bochur's first few months (and besides for the ones who rush to go out with someone before the freezer).

ora_43

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 4:39 pm

busymom wrote:

I actually think the IDF analogy was really on target. People DO rise to whatever challenge life presents.

But there are a few important factors there.

1. They've been raised with that set of expectations. Israeli teens know they have military service coming up. It's not something that can be done suddenly ("hey, turns out there are too many girls or something, so you're going to get married now instead of in three years, 'kay?" <-- I know they aren't advocating that, just an example of what not to do).

2. They see that it's necessary. Teenagers who work to support their family know that if they don't, their family will go hungry. Teenagers who join the army know that if people don't join the army, there won't be one, and they and everyone they know will be in mortal danger. Teenagers who are told to get married now instead of in four years know that... uh... something something demographics?

3. Not everybody does rise to the challenge. Some people aren't fit for military service, or marriage, at age 19 or 20 (some aren't ever fit for it). Be careful not to overlook the cases where "rising to the challenge" doesn't happen.

goodmorning

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 9:12 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I was surprised by the part of the article/shadchan interview that pretty much said "we can't convince girls to start going out later, because they will never agree to that -- proof being that <shadchan> has already seen 200 girls who come to him on the way home from the airport."

If it is indeed a good idea for girls to begin dating later, and if it will presumably help the shidduch crisis and thus decrease the panic that causes them to visit shadchanim on the way home from the airport, you don't need the agreement of parents. You need the agreement of the top 10-15 (??) shadchanim in the US that they won't see girls until, say the Chanukah after they come home from seminary. Girls can go out in the meantime with boys suggested by friends/family, but it will give a bit more time for shadchanim to focus on the previous year of girls and possibly decrease the panic/urgency too.

And getting rid of the freezer for anyone dating a girl aged 22+ or so would be a great idea. For what it's worth, we can have boys going out a few months earlier, without any sacrifice on their part. It's called getting rid of the freezer. As it generally happens, boys come to BMG (yes there are others but they have a vast majority) around when they are ready to begin dating and then are forced to wait 4 months until they start. If we want younger boys, start with these few months before dramatically rearranging the yeshiva system.

amother

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 9:42 pm

I was part of the shidduch crisis.

I wanted to marry a true ben torah but did not realize that it could only work out if my parents were willing to support us to some extent.

Unfortunately, my parents had no way to offer anything financially. I kept searching for the man of my dreams ... someone learning seriously with strong hashkafos.. I never found him because he would have never wanted to go out with me. No money, no date.

My parents were also not well connected people. I was more connected and as I got older I dealt with most shadchanim on my own. I ended up going out with boys (it became "men" later / not "boys")who had very different hashkafos than mine. I tried to make it work sometimes ... if there was something to work with. Very often I went out with socially awkward people ... I really wondered at times if there was anyone out there for me. I also wondered why my friends got married and I didn't. Much later on I realized that they were all supported in the beginning (by their parents) which is common for a young yeshivah couple.

After a while, I had a good job and could have supported us for a while but there was no one left to go out with who wanted to learn torah and live a life of torah. Anything remotely possible, I tried so hard to make work. I davened, I cried that Hashem should help me meet my bashert and that HE should help me to know when it is the right one.

I become a real "older single girl". I was well in my 30's and while I looked good on the outside, inside I was broken. I felt that my whole life was passing me by. No husband to confide in, no children to raise, no home to call my own. I wont go into the pain of being an older single ... that's for another time.

At the end, I married a widowed man with children.

He has the hashkafos I always wanted in a husband.

But this marriage is a challenge. I suppose all marriages really are and need to be worked on.

In my case, his children resent me and sometimes I feel that he does too.

There are good times, good days .... In general we are happy that we are married to each other despite all the stress.

B"H we have children together. One thing I will do for my daughters, is to make sure that I let all involved parties in their shidduchim know that we will support them at least in the beginning. I will take loans if I have to but I believe that this is the only way to marry off a yeshivish girl. (The system is hard for me to accept but it is not something I can change.)

amother

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 1:43 am

honestly wondering how a couple who are both 21 or less will be able to support themselves after financial support from parents ends. Assuming they have a kid around a year later, what is the plan exactly? Are we trading a shidduch crisis for financial ruin?

I live in the same community as the author, and I think the "shidduch crisis" is pretty minor here-- BYLA after age 25, maybe 5-8% are still single and most of these are very career oriented, I wouldn't be surprised if they only focused on dating within the past couple years.

The crisis is mainly that at age 20 we become hysterical.

He's a very generous and good man, but I do think he is out of touch with regular people who have to figure out ways to support themselves. He was raised wealthy (though as an adult he multiplied this success many times) so I don't think the middle class types who have to work, or get educated and support themselves without parental help is something he is intimate with.

This is not to take away from his amazing charity. But, I believe this point which is major for many, many people is off the radar.

I'm considering not going anonymous because I am not ashamed of my opinion, but I am giving too much personal info.

Imogen

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 1:51 am

amother wrote:

Thank you for your moving story.

I feel so upset that the community as a whole is doing this to women, the shidduch crisis is to my mind due to a warped value system that is distorting the Torah world, reducing marriage and the future of young people to a negotiation table governed by money and influence.

By making young boys look to their wives for support can you not see the distortation of Torah values, honesty, integrity and love? I do not understand what values a bachur is learning in a system that encourages serious learning but not serious integrity. And no I am not a dreamer, with my own sons, my message in shidduchim has always been, go out and give someone a chance, the benefit of the doubt and the advantage of your appreciation. Ignore yichus, wealth, and see sitting opposite a girl if you can sense chemistry, shared values and a common bond. Our history has shown we often have had to leave our wealth and status behind, but a couple who actually care for one another will be able to face what life has to throw at them. I am so tired of hearing frum parents say they never realised the boy had mental health issues, the girl's family were unable to come up with promised support etc, that is not how you talk or behave about the parents of your own grandchildren !!!!!!!! If you have to take out loans to secure a daughter's marriage as the boy will not want her without support what sort of boy is that?????

Raisin

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 6:23 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

My husband's "simple" solution: be mekarev more boys.

And should we make sure not to mekarev girls, because otherwise who will they marry?

I'm not sure support is the cause for the shidduch crises. (although I don't like that system anyway) Of course, a girl who is lacking money, or looks, or whatever, may come at the bottom of the list of potential dates, and will therefore stay single longer.

But even if every girl in the frum world was pretty, slim, smart and wealthy with excellent midos, and every boy was similarly handsome, a good learner/worker, with good midos and so on, there would still be "leftover" girls.

amother

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 10:31 am

amother wrote:

I could have written this entire post up until where I copied. In the end I married a great guy with much weaker hashkafos. It is fine and we have grown to compromise with each other. Life isn't perfect and Prince Charming doesn't usually come riding in on a white horse. You make your own life and you make your own Prince Charming.