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Mishpacha article - No Shidduch Crisis by SY Rechnitz
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 10:55 am
I think a huge problem in the shidduch crisis is how segregated everyone is nowadays. Its seen as a "compromise" to marry someone with slightly different hashkafa.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 11:30 am
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
(Raisin, don't take everything my husband says so seriously Tongue Out )


Ok, I won't. But, just pointing out that is not the answer, unless for some mysterious reason men are more attracted to becoming frum then women.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 11:53 am
Raisin wrote:
Ok, I won't. But, just pointing out that is not the answer, unless for some mysterious reason men are more attracted to becoming frum then women.


Nah, he was saying that if you invest more money in davka targeting men to be interested in Yiddishkeit, it will expand the male population for shidduchim. Which is true. On a limited scale.

(He's purposely conveniently ignoring all the other aspects of it Wink)
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 12:41 pm
Halevai it was about age.

It's about messed up middos, Hollywood idiocy, immaturity and no idea what marriage is about.

What about dating in circles where you don't have to buy a son in law, or to a more laid back community, there are places less greedy and less into Hollywood fallacy and just as frum (!!!).
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 1:52 pm
sabich wrote:
By making young boys look to their wives for support can you not see the distortation of Torah values, honesty, integrity and love? I do not understand what values a bachur is learning in a system that encourages serious learning but not serious integrity.

You're talking about values, but not addressing the practical aspect.

If a "serious learner" marries a woman who doesn't have a job that can support a family, and they don't have family support, then he will have to stop studying Torah and get a job. Actually, he'll be a few years late to start learning, because what are they going to live on while he trains for a job/gets a degree?

I'm not saying the marriage would be wrong, or anything. Just - don't just talk values, talk tachlis. Nobody is on the "anti-integrity" side of things.

Eg - are you saying that men should establish themselves in a career before going to yeshiva? Or that they should stay in yeshiva, get married without taking finances into consideration, and go out to work if/when necessary? Etc.

I think the only way a young person could completely ignore finances when dating (without ending up mired in poverty, that is) is if they're already established in a career with a decent income. From what I understand, many of the young women involved in the "dating crisis" are not interested in young men who skipped yeshiva in favor of a career - am I wrong?
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 3:47 pm
The article was full of exaggerations, hysterics, statistics made up out of thin air, and social engineering suggestions and more throw money at it solutions that are likely to cause more problems than they set out to solve. Until a reputable firm can conduct a statistically sound sampling to draw more sound conclusions, the age gap crisis that is being promoted is just a theory and one that is comfortable because it doesn't require a good look in the mirror to explore other issues including gender gaps in religious attrition (as well as those who join the yeshiva community), gender gap in desire to marry, mental issues and mental illnesses, and more.

Here are a few of my thoughts on parts of the article:

All daters should be encouraged to be reasonable, but no one should ever be told that they will NEVER EVER marry. For example: "A very popular shadchan, who spends 18 hours a day on shidduchim and is very familiar with the numbers, suggested to me that a girl in the yeshivah world who is over the age of 25 has less than a 15 percent chance of ever getting married. When I tried verifying that statistic with another shadchan, he thought it was overly generous. How did we let this happen?! What are we going to say to the Eibeshter after 120? Who can possibly carry this on their plaitzes?"

-The author suggests further social engineering. For all practical purposes the yeshivish culture is a socially engineered culture where women are expected to take on the responsibility of Mom and Dad in earning for a family without the family structure of providing daycare which is the normal arrangement in one income families and where men are not expected to "buy a field and marry" in that order. In most cultures men are expected to work and prove their worth to marry. Perhaps less social engineering is needed.

-There have been a number of studies and surveys on age gaps in marriage. I simply don't see how you can fight nature so to speak. In general, very few men prefer an older woman and women almost always prefer to date/marry an older man. I like the idea of peers dating and marrying other peers. But the yeshiva world needs to actually look into why 24 year old young men even want to date and marry 19 year old girls before trying to push together 19 and 20 year old couples. When courtship (and young marriage) was part of the life of the American high school student, I'm fairly certain that seniors didn't date freshmen for the most part, but gravitated towards peers, senior boys dating junior or senior age girls. Is it possible that 19 year old yeshivish girls are simply not peers to 20 year old bochurim?

-I don't care for the comparison between IDF soliders stepping up to the plate and bochurim marrying and stepping up to the plate. Let's just say there are plenty of 40 year old married couples still "playing house." If the author and Rabbonim were suggesting 20 year old bochurim stepping up to the plate by getting internships and jobs, I'd be more interested.

-Here is a disturbing line because it basically suggests that the author believes parents can and should be their married children's ATMs, just at a younger age and I think he is out of touch with the struggles parents are having supporting their already young and underemployed chassanim and kallas. . . why add to the pain when a few more years can mean some greater stability for the couple?: "Parents, put a little more trust in your kids. They’re more resourceful than you think. Your most frequent conversation with them after they get married will be them asking you for money, and they’ve practiced that since they were six." Look how many families are taking loans out just to pay the caterer and hall.
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 4:01 pm
amother wrote:
I could have written this entire post up until where I copied. In the end I married a great guy with much weaker hashkafos. It is fine and we have grown to compromise with each other. Life isn't perfect and Prince Charming doesn't usually come riding in on a white horse. You make your own life and you make your own Prince Charming.


I love this post because, yes, sometimes we have to "settle" but I much more prefer the approach of "mak[ing] your own Prince Charming."
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 4:15 pm
An additional thought:

The article doesn't consider desire to marry with ability to make it happen (nor does the article consider the possibility that there are a number of singles who, underneath it all, might actually lack true desire to marry). And yet the author claims to be willing to invest millions of dollars into a setting up iniative (see his response of Yeshiva World). What about an initiative to provide low cost effective counseling, coaching, and therapy to young people that aren't making appropriate progress in the dating world or already married couples that need more support to keep their marriages strong and together? Is throwing more money at shadchanim really a good use of money and an effective way to creating more successful marriages? I have my doubts.

General studies show it that even after all sorts of social changes in America from increased secularization to feminism etc etc, Americans still hold marriage as something to strive for but increasingly can't make it happen or can't hold it together when it does happen. I see the former pattern among many of my non-Jewish peers, just an inability to meet someone and get married. In the frum world I know many never married men, some with obvious issues and a number who seem to be perfectly eligible and attractive but seem to lack any ability to pursue a relationship. You can't ignore these issues in looking at solutions.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 7:51 pm
I am in agreement with 'SRS'. While I fully believe that shidduchim in the orthodox community is in favor of the boys and maybe closing the age gap can fix the problem, the reality is that if a girl really wants to get married she will. It may not be when she is 20 and it may not be to the type of person she had in mind, but she can still have a very happy and fulfilling marriage. While I understand the author is trying to make a point, to state in the article that single girls over 25 only have a small chance of getting married is just horrible, how does the author think this statement makes these girls feel!? It's like telling a sick person that they will die for sure. I personally got married in my late twenties and I had no idea that I defied the so called odds. So while yes there is a shidduch crisis due to the fact that boys have the upper hand on the dating scene, this does not mean in any way that this will cause girls to remain unmarried. If there is a will there is a way and it may just take numerous bad dates, an open mind, knowing whats important, and the ability to leave all expectations behind.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 8:09 pm
there was always a worry to marry off the daughters. even in the shabbos zemiros there is a zemira that speaks of "hirhurim mutarim..ulshadech habanot." Doesn't talk about banim...hmm.... It just seems that men always had the upper hand. Now they have even more of the upper hand. I definitely think that kollel has contributed to the shidduch "crisis" or whatever it is ppl are experiencing and shalom bayis issues in general. I think there are many more marriageable women than men. We are creating sophisticated women and unsophisticated men. People don't know how to think outside of the box and many ppl won't "take" anything less than the picture in their mind. Many parents are picky for their girls as well not only for the boys. there are many 22 year old girls who maybe went out with two different boys in total, and it's not because of lack of redting (even though for the girl it is always less than the boy). The parents can be picky. I think parent involvement is important but too much parent involvement is detrimental.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 9:53 pm
I am Chassidic. I think we have an identical problem. We are raising very intelligent street-smart girls. They are well educated in English and Yiddish/Hebrew while our boys are way behind in social and English and Yiddish/ Hebrew writing. It is hard for girls to respect our boys. I think this is the reason for divorces or the fact that by us there are way more single older boys. What is your opinion???
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 10:46 pm
amother wrote:
I am Chassidic. I think we have an identical problem. We are raising very intelligent street-smart girls. They are well educated in English and Yiddish/Hebrew while our boys are way behind in social and English and Yiddish/ Hebrew writing. It is hard for girls to respect our boys. I think this is the reason for divorces or the fact that by us there are way more single older boys. What is your opinion???

It is my opinion that this most definitely is NOT a reason why girls are divorcing boys.

The disconnect in the Chassidish world between the boys and girls is in the religion aspect, not the education or lack thereof.
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Sherri




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 11:32 pm
I think that many of the more articulate posters can write their points in an email and send it off to the subject of the article.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 5:02 pm
I think I didn't express myself well in my last post, and since the issue is bothering me now, I think I'll try again and see if anyone from that community can explain.

It sounds to this outsider like boys in the yeshivish/hareidi world are being raised to prize learning above everything. Learning Torah is the best thing you can do, being a gadol is the best thing you can be.

A young man who's "learning seriously" or a "top learner" would presumably have been praised for being good at Torah learning, possibly to the point where "good at Torah study" is a pretty important part of his identity. His parents or teachers, or others, would be hoping he goes far in Torah study - and he would be aware of their hopes.

How is it fair to take someone who's been raised to value a particular goal, who's been praised to the extent that he's pursued that goal - and then to say he's a bad person for being reluctant to get into a marriage that would get in the way of that goal?

What if it were turned around? What if a young woman had been raised to view medicine as the best possible career, had shown promise in all of her science courses, and had the potential to be a good doctor? Would it be wrong for her to decide "I'm not going to marry if it's going to get in the way of me becoming a doctor. I'm only going to marry someone who can support me in finishing med school"?

Again, not saying it's great for men to date with the potential in-laws' finances in mind. But how is that not an inevitable result of the reality they're living in?
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OOTforlife




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 7:08 pm
ora_43 wrote:
I think I didn't express myself well in my last post, and since the issue is bothering me now, I think I'll try again and see if anyone from that community can explain.

It sounds to this outsider like boys in the yeshivish/hareidi world are being raised to prize learning above everything. Learning Torah is the best thing you can do, being a gadol is the best thing you can be.

A young man who's "learning seriously" or a "top learner" would presumably have been praised for being good at Torah learning, possibly to the point where "good at Torah study" is a pretty important part of his identity. His parents or teachers, or others, would be hoping he goes far in Torah study - and he would be aware of their hopes.

How is it fair to take someone who's been raised to value a particular goal, who's been praised to the extent that he's pursued that goal - and then to say he's a bad person for being reluctant to get into a marriage that would get in the way of that goal?

What if it were turned around? What if a young woman had been raised to view medicine as the best possible career, had shown promise in all of her science courses, and had the potential to be a good doctor? Would it be wrong for her to decide "I'm not going to marry if it's going to get in the way of me becoming a doctor. I'm only going to marry someone who can support me in finishing med school"?

Again, not saying it's great for men to date with the potential in-laws' finances in mind. But how is that not an inevitable result of the reality they're living in?
If this was limited to the truly top learners, it would not be an issue because by definition there would be relatively few such boys. But what about when every girl who passes 9th grade biology only wants to marry someone who can support her dream of med school? Not saying I know anything about the quantities of actual vs. self-perceived serious learners on the yeshivish dating market. Just my sense based on imamothers.
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