Secular court vs Bais Din (split)

mdoif

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 8:45 pm

amother wrote:

http://tzedek-tzedek.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/class-suit-filed-against-seminary-beit.html?m=1

Do u pull out if he was found guilty and she is only doing it to protect her brother? Do you assume that it's family so she has to but In Her school she will be more careful?

Re: seminary lawsuit - what heter is there to go to court?

mdoif

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 9:30 pm

causemommysaid wrote:

what heter is there not to?

I'm talking about the lawsuit. Suing a Yid in court is one of the worst aveiros. The SA writes about such a person that he is likened to a blasphemer and it is as if he'd raised his hand to smite the torah.

MaBelleVie

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 9:35 pm

mdoif wrote:

And there are matters that a bet din does not preside over, and therefore they will tell you to go to court. Very simple actually.

mdoif

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 9:41 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

And there are matters that a bet din does not preside over, and therefore they will tell you to go to court. Very simple actually.

If beis din gave a proper heter there is a heter. I only asked what heter there is.

Suing in court for damages not recognized by the torah is gezeiloh (in addition to the issur of going to court).

mha3484

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 9:45 pm

I think the Beis Din system really only works when both parties are reasonable people who want to do the right thing. Unfortunately more cases involve people who are callous and don't care. I can say from experience that the secular court system has a variety of ways to force payment or return of property that a Beis Din does not have. What are people suppose to do? It stinks either way.

ElTam

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 9:55 pm

mdoif wrote:

Quote:

I'm talking about the lawsuit. Suing a Yid in court is one of the worst aveiros.

Worse than unwanted zexual contact with young women, do you think? Gilui arayos is in the three you are supposed to give your life instead of doing.

Last edited by ElTam on Sun, Aug 10 2014, 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

mdoif

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 9:56 pm

mha3484 wrote:

The beis din system is by and large sorely lacking, and many a dayan will have to give din vecheshbon for having caused frum Yidden to go to secular courts.

However, two wrongs don't make a right. If the only shechita in your area is full of problems, you still wouldn't buy meat from a non kosher supermarket.

mdoif

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 9:57 pm

ElTam wrote:

mdoif wrote:

Quote:

I'm talking about the lawsuit. Suing a Yid in court is one of the worst aveiros.

Worse than unwanted zexual contact with young women, do you think?

Does it matter which is worse? What's your point? Do you even have one?

ElTam

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 10:01 pm

My point is that all the yelling that starts up when someone chooses to go to the secular courts is more than slightly disgusting compared to the silence that descends when predators are found to be destroying young people's lives by ripping their innocence and trust and faith in rabbaim to shreds.

ETA: Apparently Meisels doesn't have a problem with Yidden suing other Yidden as he retained an attorney and is planning legal action himself. He's quoted in Ha'aretz: " “My attorney has advised me to pursue legal action against all those who are wronging myself and the seminaries.”

Last edited by ElTam on Mon, Aug 11 2014, 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total

boysrus

Sun, Aug 10 2014, 10:02 pm

mdoif wrote:

Does it matter which is worse? What's your point? Do you even have one?

OMG its you again - why are you ALWAYS so rude and belligerent???
every thread you ruin...
(in my few years on here, you are the first poster to have got my back up so badly Sad

)

saw50st8

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 5:23 am

mdoif wrote:

If beis din gave a proper heter there is a heter. I only asked what heter there is.

Suing in court for damages not recognized by the torah is gezeiloh (in addition to the issur of going to court).

You are supposed to judge people favorably. Instead of asking what heter (assumed nosiness unless you want to sue someone in court l'toeles), assume they are following halacha. Or does your holier-than-thou only work for others?

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 6:42 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Why do you assume nosiness instead of judging favourably?

The Rema writes that we need to excommunicate someone one who supports a person who sued a Yid in court. That's why I asked what heter there was, just to make sure I don't chalila support such a rasha (that's what the SA calls one who goes to court).

BTW there's no such thing (in halacha) as suing in court 'letoeles'.

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 6:42 am

saw50st8 wrote:

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 8:02 am

mdoif wrote:

Does it matter which is worse? What's your point? Do you even have one?

Of course one is worse than the other. How can you even compare? Imagine a child being violated in the worst way. Now imagine someone going to secular court (and to you, you said an aveira)

How can you not see that a molester is MUCH MUCH MUCH worse.

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 8:16 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Even assuming you're right, what (practical) difference does it make which is worse?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 8:18 am

mdoif wrote:

Even assuming you're right, what (practical) difference does it make which is worse?

Are you for real? What practical difference? HELLO, a child being hurt/violated???????? What the h@ll trumps that????? In my book, NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 8:32 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Are you for real? What practical difference? HELLO, a child being hurt/violated???????? What the h@ll trumps that????? In my book, NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once again, what difference does it make which one is worse?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 8:35 am

mdoif wrote:

Once again, what difference does it make which one is worse?

I am explaining to you why I believe one is worse than the other. Why are you not getting that?
I believe that if something is so terrible then it is worse and should be avoided at all costs. Thats what difference it makes. To me and most people out there. Rolling Eyes

fmt4

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 8:38 am

mdoif wrote:

Mdoif, what is your point in posting all this here? I know you enjoy feeling self-righteous and preaching to everyone how much better you are at following Halacha, but you're not convincing anyone that bringing a child molester to justice in a secular court is worse than being an actual child molester ( which is what you imply by using such strong language for one and not the other) Most people here actually care about their children. So please, take it somewhere else. You're not needed or wanted here.