Secular court vs Bais Din (split)

amother

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 8:47 am

I got destroyed (losing custody, losing most of marital assets, etc.) by the beis din. It was corrupt beyond words. And after I was manipulated into signing that little yiddish paper, none of the lawyers I consulted could do a thing. I was dumb enough to take it. Then someone funded a (frum) lawyer for me who educated me on the abuse of power of this beis din, that took advantage of my BT gullibility. Despite threats by the beis din, I went to secular court, where many things could not be undone but I now have my children back, and that's what matters. Call me a rasha if you'd like. My only regret is that I didn't go to the secular court from the very beginning.

Barbara

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 1:40 pm

marina wrote:

Look, I understand there are sensitive people here on imamother.

But you have to know yourself. Don't get involved. Skip these threads.

If you can't handle when people call you an apikorus and tell you that you're going to hell, there are many, many right wing people you won't be able to interact with. That's fine, but it doesn't mean everyone with those opinions should be booted off this site or suspected of being a guy or whatever.

I've no problem with the positions the mdoif takes. They are far-right positions with which I disagree, but that most assuredly does not affect my opinion of whether she has the right to espouse them.

I have no problem with anyone -- right, left, middle, black hat, no hat, thinks I'm an apikorus, thinks I'm peachy keen -- taking a halachic position, provided that such position is at least arguably supportable.

I have a problem with anyone -- insert same list here -- taking that position in a way that needlessly hurts others. And that problem compounds itself when its inserted in a thread where it has no business.

This thread, originally, had to do with someone who didn't know what to do about her daughter, who is scheduled to attend a seminary affected by this scandal this fall. Can't we all feel a little sorry about her dilemma? Can't we at least acknowledge her hurt? Why did we have to make it a thread about suing in civil courts? (And can we at least acknowledge that the seminaries at issue are right-wing. Its right-wing posters who are being hurt.)

The thread about public school. The poor OP was stuck between a rock and a hard place. What's the point of making her feel worse? Of making dire predictions?

Just as you think that more sensitive posters like the lovely Sequoia can stay out of contentious threads where she could be hurt, more contentious posters can refrain from hurting the very real posters behind threads asking for real help with real problems.

We can all remember that someone is on the other side of the screen. We can all have a little empathy.

And if you can't do that, then yes, I am going to fight against you.

out-of-towner

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 1:46 pm

Barbara wrote:

Thank you Barbra! I know that you and I disagree a lot, but you expressed my sentiments on this exactly!

And I have a big problem with someone who cannot seem to suck it up and apologize, even if they still feel that they were in the right. It doesn't take much, and this is a public forum so it would be greatly appreciated, even if the OP herself wasn't hurt!

Barbara

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 2:18 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

Oh, I never keep track of whom I disagree with, unless its personal. You could tell me that you're my best friend, and I'd believe you.

I confess, this whole mess has made me try to be more careful with my own words, which can only be a good thing.

sky

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 7:34 pm

Tova wrote:

Thank you. I agree with mdoif on a lot of what she says. Maybe not how she says it, or that it needed to be said at all, but what she says, I agree with much more than I don't. She has not made this site a nasty place to be in in the threads she has posted, rather, for me at least, that title belongs to those who have verbally and personally attacked her (most of the time for things she didn't say, which is the ironic thing.) Mdoif - HUGS, not sure if this site is right for you or not, but if you do stay know that I'm in your corner even if I'm a much quieter poster than I once was.

thank you for saying it so well.
I feel like its one big bully of gang that as soon as they see a poster's name they feel the need to pull her apart piece by piece, no matter what is said.

mdoif

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 8:15 pm

Barbara wrote:

This thread, originally, had to do with someone who didn't know what to do about her daughter, who is scheduled to attend a seminary affected by this scandal this fall. Can't we all feel a little sorry about her dilemma? Can't we at least acknowledge her hurt? Why did we have to make it a thread about suing in civil courts? (And can we at least acknowledge that the seminaries at issue are right-wing. Its right-wing posters who are being hurt.)

I hope to reply at length tomorrow iyh, but I just wanted to point out one small thing. If might appear to be a minor inaccuracy, but I see it as representative of the problems I've had on the whole.

The OP was actually not about a mother whose daughter went to one of the seminaries in question. It was a mother asking whether she should pull her daughter out of a school where Meisels' sister is the principal.

My first instinct was actually to reply as sharply as possible that there is no need to add fuel to the fire, as to my mind there is absolutely no doubt that question was about starting a witch hunt.

However I kept quiet, because sometimes I can allow others to be vigilantes.

Later when someone mentioned that a lawsuit had been started, I asked a simple question what heter there had been. That question raised the hackles of some members, who apparently understood it to mean that I think s abuse is acceptable, and afterwards the discussion went downhill.

The point I'm trying to make, and which I wrote is indicative of the main problem, is that your perception of my trouble causing is based not on facts or on what I wrote, but on what others have accused me of doing.

mummiedearest

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 8:27 pm

mdoif wrote:

mdoif, I just want to say something: your initial question was simple, but inappropriate. that's why people got upset. as I said, you wouldn't go to a friend's house, sit at her table, and ask her about the hechsher on the meat she's passing around. why not? it's a simple question, after all. the answer is as follows: it's rude. and I speak as a blunt-speaking person. I'm the one to open my mouth when others wouldn't. but the heter behind the lawsuit is not the public's business. and the fact that you asked it in order to point out a halachic issue just makes it worse. if you asked because you had a personal reason for doing so (contemplating a lawsuit for a similar reason, etc.), it would have been different. but your question was no more than rudeness. in fact, you could have posted that you wish these people luck, but you wanted to let people know that if they are in such a situation, they should ask a rav before suing. that would have fulfilled your purpose without being rude, and yes, accusatory. regardless of your intentions, that is how it comes out in writing. and since this is a written discussion forum, posters need to be careful about how their words come out. we all make mistakes in this, btw, but the telling point is whether or not you are willing to apologize for those mistakes. maintaining one's innocence when multiple members have been offended is not considered proper around here. and that's why people are upset at you. you are allowed your views. others have expressed similar lines of thought. really. we just prefer a kind tone when you point those views out.

Frumdoc

Wed, Aug 13 2014, 8:51 pm

mdoif wrote:

BTW you'll see this same problem several posts up in this thread. Frumdoc 'quoted' me as saying obnoxious things, but when I pointed out that the entire quote is a mixture of misquotes and fabrications, she didn't have the decency to apologise or even admit she accused me falsely (OOT take note), but instead she 'went outa here'.

I did not quote but compiled a group of comments made in various threads. I'm sorry you misunderstood this as a quote.It was not.

I have deep regret for interacting with you ever and apologize for any hurt I have caused you in my disagreement and pain.

I left the thread to protect myself from pain and harm, because I don't wish to take you on and argue any more. I was ending it. Call it running away. But the outcome is the same, I don't have to be accused of betraying my religion by anyone and I don't need to hang around for more of the same insults.

I live with and interact with my siblings and extended family who are "shtark RW", yet as a self defined just plain frum jew, I have never been called an apikorus, a disgrace to the religion etc. We have heated arguments over minutiae of halacha over the shabbos table, disagree about haskafic issues daily, but don't need to descend to insulting each other or threatening fire and brimstone. So the two things, being RW and conservative in practice (which ironically, is exactly how my MO friends would define me) do not equal being obnoxious to anyone who disagrees.

I am stating this simply to address the viewpoint, stated on here, that I may be attacking various people because they are "frummer than me", and to demonstrate that my closest friends and family are of exactly this outlook, and we get on fine without this type of behavior.

amother

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 8:22 am

Mdoif I am the op of this thread and I did not appreciate the fact that u totally hijacked my thread. U were one of the first to respond and right away I responded back let's stay on topic.

I think it was very selfish of u to use my thread for your own agenda and I really did not aproecaite it.
The proper way would have been to start a spin off thread as you will see the people with manners and a little caring aboit the next jew does. All the time we have spin offs. I asked u not to do what u did and u could have given me a little respect and start your own discussion.

Next time don't take every thread u don't like and hijack it. There is no limit on imamother and u can start however many threads as u like. And if u would have done that people wouldn't have been so angry with u.

deena19k

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 9:09 am

amother wrote:

Oh, come on. That's how discussions work. Most posters are guilty of doing this sometimes. Relax.

amother

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 9:31 am

Sorry my phone sent it out too fast.

I specifically asked mdoif to stay on course. She was the first to respond. Usually an op gets her response and four or five pages in the topic changes.

Mdoif tried to change the topic before I even got any answers. It's disgusting. Let me get my responses snd then make your own thread. It was an extremely selfish thing to do she obviously had her own agenda. There is no limit in imamother to how many threads a person can start. Why did she have to ruin mine especially when I asked her to stop. Can't she give another frum yid some courtesy and ahavas Yisroel?

Barbara

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 9:37 am

mummiedearest wrote:

A little different angle.

Mdoif says that she simply asked what heter there had been. Her actual quote was

Quote:

what heter is there to go to court?

Its an inappropriate question, because we are obligated to assume that halacha has been followed.

But its more than that. Mdoif, perhaps you have what my boss calls a "tin ear." You can't hear the barely veiled accusation in what you say, don't hear how different it is than "is there a heter ...." And perhaps that's been the problem elsewhere. But the fact that so many people from left to right to in-between have taken umbrage should tell you something.

Or maybe its that you are so fervent in your beliefs, and in your wish to share them, that you forget that you're addressing a real person, not a hypothetical.

We're never going to agree halachically. That's OK. I like a great number of people with whom I disagree religiously, politically, or otherwise. And even if I don't like them, I have to respect their right to their opinions. FTR, I've reported posts I thought were unkind to you. I hope that what I'm saying isn't unkind. Its not meant to be.

I just wish that you'd take a step back, and ask yourself, "could I have said that in a better way, that wouldn't have upset people." I am trying to do that myself, to learn from the lessons here.

In any case, welcome to imamother.