Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Parenting our children
Are all Japanese and Danish Parents Really Neglectful?
1  2  3  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 9:00 pm
Here's a great article about parents who let their 7 year olds ride the subway and leave their strollers outside shops.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/paral.....e-u-s
Back to top

DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:22 pm
Yes: **ALL* Danish and Japanese parents are neglectful. Every single last one.

And Danish-Japanese couples? Most.Neglectful.Parents.Ever.

In fact, there's a new game show called "Are you more neglectful than a Danish-Japanese parent?" So far nobody has won.
Back to top

FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:25 pm
What? No mention of my most favorite blogger in the whole world? http://www.freerangekids.com

Lenore Skenazy is all kinds of awesome sauce. When DD whines "I'm bored!" I'm known to tell her "Go free range yourself!"
Back to top

causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:40 pm
Some of those parenting styles did make me cringe.

ignoring a baby babbling? Babbling is part of a child's development. so is eye contact. I just hope that the fact that they carry their babies all the time makes up for not being looked in the face by their mothers.
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:05 pm
marina wrote:
Here's a great article about parents who let their 7 year olds ride the subway and leave their strollers outside shops.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/paral.....e-u-s


So, in other words, it's CULTURAL? Just like it makes no sense for Western-centric parents to judge Japanese or Danish mothers, since the cultures create different forms of parenting, perhaps (gasp) those who are not from Chassidish cultures shouldn't judge chassidish parenting??? PERISH THE THOUGHT. Then we wouldn't be able to be judgmental about those who are different than us.
Most research on "parenting" is done on a WEIRD sample (literally. WEIRD stands for Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich and Democratic, which is what the typical samples of Western studies look like) And yet, very often, those findings don't apply to other cultures.
There was a study done in Iran (a fulbright scholar lived there for a year) and she had Iranian college students and American college students watch two parent/child dyads. The Iranian mother kept her toddler by her side, sitting next to her on a blanket. The American mother let her baby explore the room and greet the students. Afterwards, the grad students were asked to rate the "attachment" of the dyads.
The Iranian students rated the Iranian dyad as securely attached, because the baby was so content to sit on the mother's lap, and so quiet and well behaved, and the American parent/child dyad as insecurely attached, as evidenced by the toddler's desire to roam away from the mother.
The American grad students rated the Iranian dyad as insecurely attached, because the child didn't have a mental representation of the mom, and rather needed to physically be near her to feel secure, and the American dyad as securely attached, because the child felt free to roam.
In other words, parenting is cultural, and it makes no sense to judge a culture from outside it.
debsey
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:41 pm
DrMom wrote:
Yes: **ALL* Danish and Japanese parents are neglectful. Every single last one.

And Danish-Japanese couples? Most.Neglectful.Parents.Ever.

In fact, there's a new game show called "Are you more neglectful than a Danish-Japanese parent?" So far nobody has won.


hahahaha. I actually first titled this thread: Parenting Issues Are Cultural, but then I noticed that no one cared. So I retitled it Smile
Back to top

DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 1:42 am
marina wrote:
hahahaha. I actually first titled this thread: Parenting Issues Are Cultural, but then I noticed that no one cared. So I retitled it Smile

Hey, it worked! Cheers
Back to top

grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 2:27 am
Even in the same culture parenting norms change over time.

I don't think there is only one right way to raise children but I do think that safety issues vary from place to place. Kids here in Israel have more independence at an early age than they do in many places in the States. Normative behavior here like letting your 6 year old walk 10 minutes to a friend isn't acceptable in the places I lived in the States.

I can't imagine leaving an infant unattended but I suppose these Danish parents have reason to believe it's safe.

I was a child before car seats were invented but I never would have let mine go without a car seat. I have actually seen parents driving here with a child on their lap as well as infants on a person's lap in the front seat. It makes me want to scream but I'm either too polite or repressed or whatever to do so.
Back to top

freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 2:30 am
Everything is cultural not just parenting.
Back to top

FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 2:31 am
grace413 wrote:
Even in the same culture parenting norms change over time.

I don't think there is only one right way to raise children but I do think that safety issues vary from place to place. Kids here in Israel have more independence at an early age than they do in many places in the States. Normative behavior here like letting your 6 year old walk 10 minutes to a friend isn't acceptable in the places I lived in the States.

I can't imagine leaving an infant unattended but I suppose these Danish parents have reason to believe it's safe.

I was a child before car seats were invented but I never would have let mine go without a car seat. I have actually seen parents driving here with a child on their lap as well as infants on a person's lap in the front seat. It makes me want to scream but I'm either too polite or repressed or whatever to do so.


I've been to Denmark. The Danish people are wonderful, and the entire country is like one big village. Everyone looks after each other, very much like Israel (except they don't yell, they're very polite LOL!)

I remember when I was growing up, my dad had a Nash Rambler that didn't even have seat belts in the back. My sister and I bounced around like crazy monkeys back there. We never had bike helmets, either. It's a miracle we all survived.
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 9:38 pm
But really, I do wonder. Why is it neglectful for us to let our kids go on the subway but not for a Japanese mom?

Is there no objective standard for child care, aside from the very very basics?
Back to top

sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 9:40 pm
marina wrote:
But really, I do wonder. Why is it neglectful for us to let our kids go on the subway but not for a Japanese mom?

Is there no objective standard for child care, aside from the very very basics?


It is neglectful for anyone. But they haven't realized it yet.

Fewer crazies over there...
Back to top

Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 10:06 pm
marina wrote:
But really, I do wonder. Why is it neglectful for us to let our kids go on the subway but not for a Japanese mom?

Is there no objective standard for child care, aside from the very very basics?


I think that the basic safety of the mode of transit needs to be considered.

But I do think it's objectively unsafe for children under the age of 11 or so to take public transit alone. I have two stories. One I can't tell here, because it involved someone else getting lost on public transit at a young age, and it's not my story. The other is this: I was on a bus on my way to work one day. It was unusually crowded. I started listening to conversations around me, and it turns out that there was a subway crash with multiple fatalities, and the line was shut down. Then I heard an older woman talking to a little boy, about 9. Are you sure you can show me where your school is, be sure to call your parents, etc. turns out that when they made everyone exit the train, he didn't know what to do, so he just stood and cried. BH, a nice woman found him and was taking him to school. I cringe to think what could have happened if he had wandered off alone and gotten really lost.

But really, things used to be freer in the US until Adam Walsh and Eitan Patz. Marina will tell me it's rare, and she is of course correct. But it scared the dickens out of American parents, and changed the way we raise kids.
Back to top

yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 10:15 pm
grace413 wrote:
I was a child before car seats were invented but I never would have let mine go without a car seat. I have actually seen parents driving here with a child on their lap as well as infants on a person's lap in the front seat. It makes me want to scream but I'm either too polite or repressed or whatever to do so.

http://youtu.be/jitw0tZsEm0
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 9:37 am
marina wrote:
But really, I do wonder. Why is it neglectful for us to let our kids go on the subway but not for a Japanese mom?

Is there no objective standard for child care, aside from the very very basics?


It is cultural. Japan is a collectivist culture, meaning that other adults will assume responsibility for a child they see on the street. In the US, if a child is screaming on a subway, most people will look the other way. In Japan, any adult around will intervene. In a collectivist culture, all children are considered to be the responsibility of the entire group. In an individualist culture, like the US, people stick to their own small "in-group" Denmark is similar - many Scandinavian cultures have similar collectivist outlooks when it comes to childcare. Children are the communal property of the group. It's lovely - until you are a child who wants to be somewhat different. Collectivist cultures prize conformity. Contrast the American proverb "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" with the Japanese "The nail that sticks up, gets pounded down."
Back to top

sweetpotato




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 10:39 am
Quote:
It is cultural. Japan is a collectivist culture, meaning that other adults will assume responsibility for a child they see on the street. In the US, if a child is screaming on a subway, most people will look the other way. In Japan, any adult around will intervene.


Debsey, just wondering if you've spent time in Japan? I lived there, and haven't found this to be the case at all. Conformist yes, but people in public actually tend to be much less interventionist than in the U.S. (I.e. if you slip and fall, most people WILL look the other way--not because they are callous, but because it would be considered embarrassing to the first who fell to make a big deal about it.)

I saw little kids (age 5 and up) riding the trains (between cities) all the time in Japan. They tended to ride together in groups, held hands, and seemed to be having a great time. It was definitely not shocking to see. But I also never saw other adults taking any particular notice of it, so I don't think the argument that Japan is a profoundly different society in that regard explains it.

Japan does have a lower crime rate, but most of the crime in the U.S. is not random acts of violence against children in public, so I don't think that explains it.

I think the difference lies here: First, kids in Japan tend to spend a lot more time out in public than American kids do. More live in cities, less time is spent in cars, a lot more time is spent on public transit. So the idea of a kid being out in public alone isn't some scary, quasi-illegal venture at all. It's part of normal life and normal socialization.

Second, the public transit system in Japan is REALLY well-run. Every time a train boards, 3 or more uniformed conductors (often young women) are on the platform, helping direct people. People line up, wait till passengers disembark, and board in an orderly manner. Every train station is clean, well-lit, and has escalators. There are easy-to-read maps. There are attendants throughout who will help you if you are lost. And, every few blocks or so, there is a neighborhood "police box" where you can go to ask for help, directions, etc. All these are important safeguards that mean sending your 5 and 7 year old kids on the train alone is not such a scary prospect at all.

I think anyone who has seen the NYC public transit system can attest that it is nothing like this.

Nonetheless, I do think that a child under 11 can learn how to use public transportation in the U.S. I don't want to make this claim without exact statistics to back it up, but my strong guess is that any American kid is far more likely to be injured in a car accident driving with his parents, than to have any adverse effect from riding public transportation alone (assuming the child has been properly taught by his/her parents how to use public transportation.)

BTW no one wears bike helmets in Japan either Smile
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 11:28 am
sweetpotato wrote:
Quote:
It is cultural. Japan is a collectivist culture, meaning that other adults will assume responsibility for a child they see on the street. In the US, if a child is screaming on a subway, most people will look the other way. In Japan, any adult around will intervene.


Debsey, just wondering if you've spent time in Japan? I lived there, and haven't found this to be the case at all. Conformist yes, but people in public actually tend to be much less interventionist than in the U.S. (I.e. if you slip and fall, most people WILL look the other way--not because they are callous, but because it would be considered embarrassing to the first who fell to make a big deal about it.)

I saw little kids (age 5 and up) riding the trains (between cities) all the time in Japan. They tended to ride together in groups, held hands, and seemed to be having a great time. It was definitely not shocking to see. But I also never saw other adults taking any particular notice of it, so I don't think the argument that Japan is a profoundly different society in that regard explains it.

Japan does have a lower crime rate, but most of the crime in the U.S. is not random acts of violence against children in public, so I don't think that explains it.

I think the difference lies here: First, kids in Japan tend to spend a lot more time out in public than American kids do. More live in cities, less time is spent in cars, a lot more time is spent on public transit. So the idea of a kid being out in public alone isn't some scary, quasi-illegal venture at all. It's part of normal life and normal socialization.

Second, the public transit system in Japan is REALLY well-run. Every time a train boards, 3 or more uniformed conductors (often young women) are on the platform, helping direct people. People line up, wait till passengers disembark, and board in an orderly manner. Every train station is clean, well-lit, and has escalators. There are easy-to-read maps. There are attendants throughout who will help you if you are lost. And, every few blocks or so, there is a neighborhood "police box" where you can go to ask for help, directions, etc. All these are important safeguards that mean sending your 5 and 7 year old kids on the train alone is not such a scary prospect at all.

I think anyone who has seen the NYC public transit system can attest that it is nothing like this.

Nonetheless, I do think that a child under 11 can learn how to use public transportation in the U.S. I don't want to make this claim without exact statistics to back it up, but my strong guess is that any American kid is far more likely to be injured in a car accident driving with his parents, than to have any adverse effect from riding public transportation alone (assuming the child has been properly taught by his/her parents how to use public transportation.)

BTW no one wears bike helmets in Japan either Smile

Never lived in Japan. Based my response on the research I've read, including a year long course with a professor who lived in both India and Japan and conducted research on psychotherapy there. But the things you are describing don't contradict what I said - collectivist cultures tend to have much better public facilities than individualist ones - the conductors, the sign-boards, the cleanliness - I'm betting there's less graffiti and less gratuitous ruining of public facilities in Japan than there is in the US.
When the culture is set up in such a way that public facilities are safe - the children will be allowed to use them.
I knew about the whole "saving face" thing - if you slip and fall, people will look away. That's based on the assumption that you would WANT to save face by not having anyone intervene. But what would happen if a child screamed "Help"?
debsey
Back to top

chavs




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 12:02 pm
Just chiming in because I am Danish, I don't actually live in Denmark and haven't lived there since I turned 18 but was born and grew up there.
Yep, babies are left outside restaurants when parents go inside to eat. Babies are also taken out for their daily nap outside as it is believed that they need the fresh air. In winter they are covered with duvets, heavy hats and winter clothes. My mother and sister both believe it boosts the immune system.
Its a cultural thing, one I never thought of adapting as I don't see the point.
Anyways, it might seem cruel/neglectful to foreigners but when I came to England and heard of the practise of letting babies cio I was shocked. Its just not something ppl do in Denmark, you'd probably have social services come for a visit if they found out you were letting a baby cio.
Another difference is that almost everyone breastfeeds. Most ppl don hide their breasts when they do it either. You'll be having a conversation with someone, their baby needs nursing and everyone gets a view. It probably help women nurse that they don't feel the need to hide away.
Anyways, there are many differences between England and Denmark. Personally I could never cio (don't know if that's because of my nature or cultural), I never left my kids outside shops though.
Back to top

sweetpotato




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 2:15 pm
Quote:
Never lived in Japan. Based my response on the research I've read, including a year long course with a professor who lived in both India and Japan and conducted research on psychotherapy there. But the things you are describing don't contradict what I said - collectivist cultures tend to have much better public facilities than individualist ones - the conductors, the sign-boards, the cleanliness - I'm betting there's less graffiti and less gratuitous ruining of public facilities in Japan than there is in the US.
When the culture is set up in such a way that public facilities are safe - the children will be allowed to use them.
I knew about the whole "saving face" thing - if you slip and fall, people will look away. That's based on the assumption that you would WANT to save face by not having anyone intervene. But what would happen if a child screamed "Help"?
debsey


I agree that what I wrote doesn't contradict the idea of Japan being a more collectivist society than America. I just wanted to point out that it's not as if all, or even many, Japanese adults riding the trains are passively overseeing the kids on the train, regardless of who they belong to. There's much less interaction, eye contact, etc. on trains in Japan than in the U.S., in my experience.

Yes, if a kid yelled "Help!", people would come to the kid's aid. But wouldn't the same thing happen in the U.S.? I have a hard time believing that if a kid was in distress on a bus or train in NYC, people would just ignore him.

But my point is that, in my view, the main reason why little kids in Japan safely ride public transit isn't due to overarching cultural differences between the Japan and the U.S., but largely because they have a great, reliable, predictable public transit system and little kids learn how to use it.
Back to top

marina




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 2:36 pm
Quote:
In the US, if a child is screaming on a subway, most people will look the other way


I totally disagree with this. If anything, people are so nosy. Some kid is playing in the park without mommy and then half the neighborhood is calling CPS.
Back to top
Page 1 of 3 1  2  3  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Parenting our children

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Attn parents of marrieds
by amother
21 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 7:39 pm View last post
PANDAS PARENTS
by amother
31 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 3:13 pm View last post
Do you give fancy MM to parents/in laws?
by amother
27 Thu, Mar 21 2024, 8:56 am View last post
Album - chossons parents
by amother
1 Mon, Mar 18 2024, 6:19 am View last post
Requesting specific room/accommodations at parents/in laws 21 Sat, Mar 16 2024, 9:51 pm View last post
by zaq