Are all Japanese and Danish Parents Really Neglectful?

freidasima

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 2:44 pm

I think that Barbara is correct in what she wrote about Eitan Paz etc. changing how people raised kids. When I was young in NY a lot of us took public transportation alone, Maybe not at 5 or 7 but definitely by the time we were nine we were on city transport buses by ourselves to go to school and home as the school bus only took us until fourth grade or something like that. It was considered safe and normal and adults watched out for children, there were fewer predators and more people willing to intervene in normal middle class neighborhoods from what I remember.

HonesttoGod

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 3:17 pm

causemommysaid wrote:

Some of those parenting styles did make me cringe.

ignoring a baby babbling? Babbling is part of a child's development. so is eye contact. I just hope that the fact that they carry their babies all the time makes up for not being looked in the face by their mothers.

According to you.

Like everyone said, life is cultural. It is all how you grow up, what you are taught to believe. Whether it is right or wrong, can you honestly blame the 7yr old boy who's father took a picture of him holding a severed head of an iraqi? No I blame his parents wholeheartedly for brainwashing him into terrorism.
Do I want him to realize how bad this is when he is older? yes but that doesn't mean he will because when something, like culture is so ingrained in us it is hard to change.

My marriage for example, I had some very hard times, culturally between myself and my dh, mil and sils because we come from two different backgrounds/upbringings.

ora_43

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 4:52 pm

marina wrote:

But really, I do wonder. Why is it neglectful for us to let our kids go on the subway but not for a Japanese mom?

1. Because it's "not done." That doesn't mean that an American parent who does it is necessarily neglectful - they might have thought it out and have really good reasons.

But it means that the average parent who does it will be neglectful. Because when something is perceived as dangerous, only two types of parents allow it - a very small group of parents who thought about it carefully and decided the reward is worth the risk, and an unfortunately large group of parents who don't care nearly as much as they should.

2. Because parenting is about raising your child to succeed in the culture they'll be living in. Like, if you're living in an upper-middle-class community in America, encouraging your daughter to take AP classes and get involved in extracurriculars is good parenting.

If you're living in rural Ghana, the same upbringing would be gross negligence (who raises a child to the teen years without teaching her to do basic things like carry water from the well or slaughter a chicken??).

3. Because different realities. The same activity might be less dangerous elsewhere. Or it could be that the rewards are greater elsewhere (eg. in some places, if kids don't take the bus alone, it's no big deal, in other places, it means their activities are very limited).

(This is different from #2 because it varies by place, rather than by the culture the child is being raised to)

Quote:

Is there no objective standard for child care, aside from the very very basics?

What are the basics that all cultures could more or less agree to? I would say - love your kids and show them you love them, provide for their physical needs, listen to their problems and try to help them when they need it, teach them whatever you think they'll need to know to succeed as an adult, raise them to be decent people... and probably a few more things I'm forgetting.

Maybe I'm lazy, but to me that sounds like plenty to be getting on with Wink

. It sounds like a pretty big common ground.

Peanut2

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 6:24 pm

sweetpotato wrote:

Quote:

It was considered safe and normal and adults watched out for children, there were fewer predators and more people willing to intervene in normal middle class neighborhoods from what I remember.

By and large, American cities are much safer than they were 30 or so years ago, and there are fewer crimes against children.

I've read stuff with actual crime rates saying this is totally not true.

chavs

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 7:04 pm

rachel91 wrote:

I believe that the 'customs' mentioned in the article are only done by a small percentage of people living in those different countries.

It seems unlikely otherwise.

Seriously most ppl in Denmark leave their kids outside restaurants as well as have babies sleep outside for fresh air. It's considered common sense to let type child have fresh air. Even ppl living in flats leave their babies downstairs for fresh air.

rachel91

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 7:25 pm

[quote="chavs"]Seriously most ppl in Denmark leave their kids outside restaurants as well as have babies sleep outside for fresh air. It's considered common sense to let type child have fresh air. Even ppl living in flats leave their babies downstairs for fresh air.[/qu

I don't remember anymore, I've been to Denmark quite long ago, I like the idea of fresh air, but not in front of a shop, or restaurant, while your inside.
I wasn't only reffering to this particular 'custom', I mean in general propably not everyone in those countries does the same.

Peanut2

Thu, Aug 14 2014, 8:46 pm

sweetpotato wrote:

Quote:

I've read stuff with actual crime rates saying this is totally not true.

Do you have an example? Just a quick search for federal crime statistics shows that all categories of crime have declined over the past two decades.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cj.....ble-1

Sorry I totally misread what you wrote. I thought I was disagreeing with someone saying that everything is more dangerous now.

I am really really tired and imamother is my form of relaxation.

So yes, what you said. We're more frightened but actually safer.

Read somewhere a list of what a 7 year old was supposed to be able to do in the 1970s or some other such time. They were less advanced academically, but were expected to be able to walk around their neighborhood independently. Seems more reasonable to me.

Tablepoetry

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 4:50 am

Ruchel wrote:

I'm shocked by some of these things- but the American helicoptering, culture of reporting, hovering/cutting grapes and sausages, very early bedtime, everything abuse... it is very very very foreign to me.

Reporting stam is foreign to me too. And Israeli kids have a lot of freedom. But cutting grapes and sausages is comme il faut here (that's how you say it, right?). Everyone does it. Every few months you read of a toddler who choked on a hot dog, chas vechalila, and that's enough to remind you to be vigilant.

Ruchel

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 4:53 am

LOL yes comme il faut.

I don't read these stories often. But unfortunately there are accidents with many things in life, yes. Still I don't see people/teachers/canteen doing it, or doctors and security booklets advising it (outside of Imamother). I would skip sausages and grapes and whatever people cut, before cutting them, especially with kah several kids.

I also don't forbid foods "out of risk" or in prevention of allergies.

rachel91

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 5:06 am

Ruchel wrote:

Same here. Especially the everything abuse.
American culture is very different than here in Europe. (Eventhough my kids also have a very early bedtime Smile

)

Raisin

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 5:29 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

No early bedtime in Israel. We're probably more like the Spanish cultures mentioned earlier. Definitely after age 8-10, it's very very common for kids to be up quite late.

Yes. I've noticed if we make an evening event, local (european) families often won't come since their kids need to be in bed by 7 or 8. Israelis see no issue with having an 8 year old up till 10 or 11pm.

yo'ma

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 8:45 am

rachel91 wrote:

I go to bed very late, but my kids are in bed by 6/7. Yes, in Israel everything is late, here restaurants close at 10.30 pm. Smile

Here it's confusing. Fleishig restaurants don't open until 8:30 for dinner and I think they're open till around 1 am. Most kosher groceries close at 7, even Thursday evening. The pizza stores are open all day and I have no idea what time they close.

I asked one of my children what the average schedule is like after school for his classmates. He said, they come, eat a snack (usually not healthy), play on the computer or the like, eat supper and then go back to playing on the computer or the like and then go to bed. It's usually around 11 by then. They don't go to bed late for family time. Maybe that used to be the thing, but not anymore.

Often they have activities at night and it's not called for until late and of course, they're known not to be prompt here, so it starts even later and then what time it finishes it's crazy. Last week Motzei Shabbos, they had bingo in my childrens school to raise money for the chayalim or something like that. Anyway, it was called for 8:30, it didn't start till around 9:30 and it was over 12:30-1. I left before 11:30 and the only way I went was if my ds took a nap during the day. I only took one child, the 6 year old. No one else wanted to go and I wouldn't have taken the 4 year old. I saw a 4 year old there crying and crying. She was probably exhausted!

It's very normal for my children, an 11 year old, to be invited to go out for pizza motzei shabbos and they don't meet until 9-9:30. This is when shabbos is over at 6:30.

Makes no difference to me because I'm an american and my kids go to bed at a "decent" time Very Happy

Dandelion1

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 9:15 am

I had a lovely neighbor when my oldest dd and ds were little. She had come to America from Russia as an adult. We became quite close. She had dcs of the same age, who were allowed to play out in the hallway on shabbos afternoons while their parents napped, relaxed, etc. This was incomprehensible to me, the idea of not having my children under my direct supervision at all times. I couldn't help but see her as remiss.

However, on rainy days when I would bundle my kids into rain jackets and boots and trudge outside to tend to our plans despite the inclement weather, she was baffled. When my ds refused all but one bite of his lunch and I paid no mind, figuring he'd eat later when he was hungry, she was horrified.

Our maternal fears and concerns were so culturally determined, so inbred. The idea of a child, g-d forbid, being taken, was (and is) so pervasive to me. I didn't believe they'd catch colds from a walk in the rain, and if they did? We'd take a visit to the pediatrician.... Her fears ran in the opposite direction.... You'd never convince either of us that the other was more "correct" ...