how do people survive?

chocolate chips

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 10:52 am

Barbara wrote:

But in any case, your premise is wrong. People in America can live, and can live well, without committing felonies. Go to school. Get an education. Get a job. Work hard. Live within your means. If a "starter home" in the neighborhood you want to live in is $500,000, and you can't afford that, live in a different neighborhood, or rent until you can afford it. If you can't afford to pay your bills and send your kids to private school, then send your kids to public school. If you can't afford to pay your bills while one parent doesn't work (stay at home parent or kollel), then look for a job.

And I wanted to say I am extremely offended by this.
My dh works, like a dog. I work, like a dog. We cannot afford luxuries and even some necessities (for us, because for you, buying a certain item is a luxury whereas for me it may be necessity). I have two kids and I barely see them because I am either working or crashed out in bed from working.
And no, I cannot afford to pay health insurance or other bills.

Life sucks. And I live in America. And most of my counterparts in the UK, Canada and Europe have a better life than me. And I don't mean they have more money, I mean they get more for their money.
If you don't know this about me yet, I will tell you, I am desperate to move from here. DESPERATE to move out of this country. But it is not an option sadly. I won't go into details why but it isn't and it sucks.

amother

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 10:54 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Yes but its a stepping stone. This year it may be back breaking, but usually people get raises and promotions.

Not in this job. I work by the hour and this offer is the best hourly rate I have ever seen. The only "raise" would be if I choose to work more hours which is what I didn't want to do because I want to be home with my kids more. In fact there is always the opposite risk that they could cut the hours or the rate.

Raisin

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 11:05 am

Peanut2 wrote:

How do people actually cheat the government? There is all this talk of fraud, but how does it actually happen? And what are people doing that they can do it all under the table? I mean, I know cleaning ladies and housekeepers and day-laborers who wait at the corner are sometimes paid under the table, so to speak. But what are all these frum people doing? What jobs?

some frum schools (and maybe businesses?)will pay off the books some of the money. So if you need to earn less then $30000 a year (just pulling numbers from the air) to qualify for medicaid, etc, they will pay your $29000 a year and give you the rest in cash.

tutoring and like can easily be done under the table too, if you are careful. Likewise babysitting groups.

(although, not in the USA, but a relative put an ad in a newspaper saying he was available to tutor. He later got a call from the tax people to check that he was not making any income from this.

When you go into certain shops, they offer a discount if you pay in cash.

boysrus

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 11:08 am

chocolate chips wrote:

It IS very hard to live here chocolate chips. the quality of life is better in blighty in several ways. most of my friends back over there do not have the same finacnial stresses as we do here. the welfare system is much better there. the only thing not worth missing is the NHS...
I feel for you, I know how you are feeling. It is very hard to be working so hard and still not make ends meet. we have it the same way. back over hte pond we managed on one income, here two incomes are vital, halthcare and tuitions are teh big killer. going back to work six weeks after giving birth stinks. Are you sure you cant move back one day? hang in there. maybe the day will come. in hte meantime take comfort in the less open anti semitism, every time we visit the UK we are shocked anew at the overt anti semitism...
Hug

chocolate chips

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 11:09 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

You stated an opinion, not a fact. By any stretch.

And people can almost always find a frum community where they can live within their means, but they end up whining while they stay in their $$$$ in town communities for all sorts of irrelevant reasons.

Almost being the predominant word here.

Like I posted right after you, I am desperate to move but for various reasons both personal and practical, it is not an option. In the mean time we are drowning. Iy"H soon we WILL be able to move but I can't see past next week right now.

And yes maybe it is my opinion but I am basing this on many many conversations, articles and discussions I have had and read. Not just on my overtired brain.

morah

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 11:16 am

Just want to point out that, contrary to what some posters here seem to think, our secular counterparts are NOT doing any better or having it any easier than we are. Let's just say the housing bubble didn't burst solely because of Teaneck or Brooklyn. Also, secular people may not send to yeshiva (which by the way is NOT the same thing as "private school", but that's for a different thread), but they spend thousands per year on sports and other pricey extracurricular activities, and tons on gas shuttling each kid to a different part of town 5 evenings a week. Think we're crazy when it comes to shidduchim? You should see what some secular communities are like when it comes to college applications, the end goal being to get into an elite school. Enough secular people made bad financial choices to crash the economy, and enough politicians on both sides of the aisle have made disastrous policy decisions- the left focused too much on the poor, the right too much on the rich, and the middle, which is the vast majority, gets screwed on both ends. This is not an exclusively frum issue, it just manifests a little differently for us.

dimyona

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 11:20 am

chocolate chips wrote:

There's no reason for you to move out of the country. That's a pretty drastic move. I assume that like me, you live in Brooklyn. I'm in the same boat as you; working hard, just about covering expenses, and hardly ever seeing my little one.

But then we figured out that by moving just 50 or so miles out of the city, we can buy a nice house with a mortgage that would be half of the rent we're paying now for our hole in the wall. As soon as we have enough money for a down payment, and we both find jobs, we're streaking out of this cement lined jail. We'll miss the late night sushi, close family nearby, and other conveniences. But how much are we willing to pay for that? Maybe once we are more comfortable we can afford to buy a house here.

Right now, by paying the exorbitant rent, we're stuck in a rat's wheel, and I just want out.

LittleDucky

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 11:33 am

chocolate chips wrote:

I can't pretend to know why you can't move, but if you make a list of said reasons try to see if there is another way around them. Financial concerns can trump most "wants" and some "needs".
There are TONS of small communities that would welcome you with open arms, many with the necessities of a frum life (minyan, mikvah, frum school, grocery. I think that covers all the necessities.) Plus, financial help in some cases- there was a whole list out there at one point. I know someone who got a sweetheart rental on a house in their new community since the shul owned it. And many are close to major cities.

LittleDucky

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 11:45 am

questioner wrote:

Tangential, but I've seen the frum stores consistently have better prices for eggs, but worse for cheerios, peanut butter etc. Why are the eggs cheaper in frum stores?

Interesting. Eggs are about equal where I live/shop (but other places have sales) but I wonder why PB and Cheerios are so so much more? Pasta at one kosher store was so much more expensive! I saw that and said, "no wonder people complain about high grocery bills if the 'cheap dinner' is so expensive!". That day it was on sale at a chain store and was on sale the previous week at the other chain nearby. Half price.
I force myself to go out with the crying baby or go out real late when DH is home to watch roost because I cannot afford to spend $2 a box on pasta, a can of tuna or anything else I can get half price at a different store. My budget is tight and it's tough.

Peanut2

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 11:51 am

morah wrote:

This is how the educated upper middle class lives. Not everyone in America. And yes, it's this middle class that's getting squeezed. Because how can you save for our children's college education while still paying your own student loans, even with a very good job? Daycare and preschool cost a fortune, and don't forget - people pay lots of money to live in a good school district when relying on public school, plus high taxes associated with good districts and good schools. Or they spend a fortune on private school.

That said, having two or even four children in a place where a home costs between $200K and $400K, and even less for a starter home or one in a 'lesser location' is very different from Brooklyn. Brooklyn is madly expensive and let's not pretend otherwise. Unfortunately Jewish life is very expensive everywhere. I live very very OOT and the Jewish neighborhood is the most expensive one in the city, I think. Homes start at the low 300K, but most people live in homes that are close to 500, and there are plenty at 1 million and beyond. And you've never even heard of this place. But that's where the Jews live, and day school is over 10K a year. (And salaries aren't necessarily NY salaries - depends on your field...) And kosher food is much more expensive.

Jeanette

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 12:04 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

That said, having two or even four children in a place where a home costs between $200K and $400K, and even less for a starter home or one in a 'lesser location' is very different from Brooklyn. Brooklyn is madly expensive and let's not pretend otherwise. Unfortunately Jewish life is very expensive everywhere. I live very very OOT and the Jewish neighborhood is the most expensive one in the city, I think. Homes start at the low 300K, but most people live in homes that are close to 500, and there are plenty at 1 million and beyond. And you've never even heard of this place. But that's where the Jews live, and day school is over 10K a year. (And salaries aren't necessarily NY salaries - depends on your field...) And kosher food is much more expensive.

What she said. I grew up in an OOT community where housing is cheap. We have thought about moving back there. But pay for my line of work would be 25% less. Tuition would be about the same or maybe even more, kosher food is more expensive, and in NYC we can get by without a car and use public transportation. No such option where I grew up. So, we could get better housing but that's about the only advantage.

Moving 50 miles outside NYC sounds intriguing -- but I don't think I'd want that long commute to work.

I once interviewed for a job in Albany and the pay was laughable. About half of NYC rate.

MaBelleVie

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 12:09 pm

Sometimes people get so stuck on specific numbers that they neglect to calculate *total* cost of living. Yes, if you choose to live out of NY your salary will often be a significant percentage less. However, so will health insurance. And taxes. And housing. And if you go to the right place, you get tuition vouchers. And the lower standard of living translates to spending less on other miscellaneous expenses, because other people aren't buying or doing xyz so it doesn't enter your mind or your kids minds to need xyz.

Not every place out of NY will save you money. But those places absolutely exist, for those willing to consider it.

Barbara

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 12:36 pm

chocolate chips wrote:

You are right.

Sometimes, no matter how hard you try, it doesn't work. And I apologize for incorrectly suggesting that is not the case.

But reading this thread, I see what I described far too often. People living in homes that cost between half and three-quarters of a million dollars, and sending their kids to private school, then wondering why they can't make ends meet. People not understanding the concept of trying to live within their means.

ValleyMom

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 1:33 pm

There is just NO way to survive in this economy, as a kosher consumer, with several kids in private school and own a decent home. in America even if you make a million dollars a year.

I have two college degrees.
My husband has two college degrees and a specialty.

We live in a small home in a decent neighborhood with 2 kids in college and 1 finishing elementary school.

We DO NOT travel.

We DO NOT go out to eat.

We DO NOT see movies, theater, symphony etc.

Maybe, and I mean maybe, we will order some take out.

We don't eat red meat- maybe twice a year... Sukkos, Rosh Hashana...

Frankly I feel like a hamster on a wheel, running and running and running and getting nowhere.

If my husband or I G-d Forbid got sick and required extensive treatment or hospital stay we would lose our home.

The people, like us, who are in the middle do not get government assistance or scholarship.

Life is hard ladies and we are just surviving.

NOTE: I am NOT complaining, merely informing what life is like. I m grateful every day that we bought our home when the market was right. I am grateful every day that we are all healthy and moderately sane.

GreenEyes26

Fri, Aug 15 2014, 1:49 pm

chocolate chips wrote:

CC, I totally hear you and I know how hard it is. Thankfully we have a light at the end of the tunnel but it's years away and we are struggling right now. It's very, very hard.

But one thing - one very important thing - you are leaving out of your above explanation is that (IIRC) both you and your husband don't have college degrees or any sort of professional training. I don't know what your specific jobs are right now but realistically, and I say this with all due respect (and I aim this question at the entire communities of people who don't go to college) what do you expect? If a couple has education, no training, and no money when they marry and start having kids....this is what happens. You have no way to pull yourself out of the hole you're in because you have no ladder. You can move somewhere cheaper with more government assistance and the hole will get shallower, but the basic life-building foundation just isn't there.