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Forum
-> Household Management
-> Finances
amother
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 Thu, Aug 14 2014, 7:44 pm
I am NOT advocating this for anyone else, but honestly, the way I survived (or plan to survive) is that we have two kids.
We don't make a ton of $$, we don't get WIC or foodstamps, and we just cannot afford another child.
I recognise this is not a decision everyone would make, and it sucks that we NEED to make that decision, but that is how we survive without living off of others/government handouts :/
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wispalover
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Thu, Aug 14 2014, 7:45 pm
| MaBelleVie wrote: | | What on earth does this mean? Do you think beit din shel maala will be sympathetic to that excuse? |
It's ok.. You can cheat non-Jews, no?
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amother
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Thu, Aug 14 2014, 7:45 pm
I don't cheat the system but I understood from some responders that this is the way to go so I said that this notion upsets me.
I'm assuming this won't pass too well in Beis din shel Maaleh but it appears to be 'the way to go'
Noone is coming up with other suggestions
I for one will be workign harder and longer, take away time from my family, to earn everythign that I'm losing in benifits.
I think I'm nuts.
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sequoia
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Thu, Aug 14 2014, 7:49 pm
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It's just so nonsensical, to be CHEATING, LYING, and STEALING in order to afford kosher food, shabbat/yom tov meals, and yeshiva tuition. If you think about it, it's hilarious.
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MaBelleVie
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Thu, Aug 14 2014, 7:49 pm
| amother wrote: | I don't cheat the system but I understood from some responders that this is the way to go so I said that this notion upsets me.
I'm assuming this won't pass too well in Beis din shel Maaleh but it appears to be 'the way to go'
Noone is coming up with other suggestions
I for one will be workign harder and longer, take away time from my family, to earn everythign that I'm losing in benifits.
I think I'm nuts. |
No, I didn't notice anyone advocating cheating. Staying on programs in itself is not cheating the system.
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wispalover
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Thu, Aug 14 2014, 7:50 pm
| amother wrote: | I don't cheat the system but I understood from some responders that this is the way to go so I said that this notion upsets me.
I'm assuming this won't pass too well in Beis din shel Maaleh but it appears to be 'the way to go'
Noone is coming up with other suggestions
I for one will be workign harder and longer, take away time from my family, to earn everythign that I'm losing in benifits.
I think I'm nuts. |
I feel really bad for you. I was in that situation as well, and it really sucks.
Is there a chance of finding a job with health insurance if you are on a govt-supported health program currently? Is there a chance of moving out of the expensive place you live now?
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amother
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Thu, Aug 14 2014, 8:58 pm
| amother wrote: | I don't cheat the system but I understood from some responders that this is the way to go so I said that this notion upsets me.
I'm assuming this won't pass too well in Beis din shel Maaleh but it appears to be 'the way to go'
Noone is coming up with other suggestions
I for one will be workign harder and longer, take away time from my family, to earn everythign that I'm losing in benifits.
I think I'm nuts. |
I am in this exact situation and just started a new thread about it. I have no idea what to do... work twice as hard to just about break even, or rely on government programs while watching every cent of income because I'm close to the cutoff line so it feels like playing games... we do not lie, I report everything even small amounts of cash income, we do still qualify currently, I could easily work a few more hours a week but that would get us cut out of programs without earning enough to make ends meet. I just got an opportunity that would make ends meet but it would literally more than double my hours away from the family. I just don't know what's the right thing to do...
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amother
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Thu, Aug 14 2014, 10:32 pm
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OP here, the reality is that our community takes advantage of the system. Was food stamps, medicaid, WIC, section 8 and all the other programs put in place so that people can get married young, have no means of support, (join kollel) and now "legitimately" qualify for the programs??? I think I read a few months ago that in a certain frum neighborhood, 93% were on medicaid. Is that what the programs r there for? In short, I would imagine they were intended for people who who r making an effort to support themselves but for whatever reason can't. I'm not bashing kollel. My DH has several family members that live the kollel lifestyle and I have the utmost respect for them. That being said, to be fair, I'm not sure I can differentiate a kollel family that is on programs and a guy who either works off the books, or purposely doesn't try to increase his income bec. his family will lose program eligibility. In both instances they are circumventing the real reason the program was put in place.
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saw50st8
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 3:58 am
| amother wrote: | | This is the story of my life, too. I desperately want to live like a mentsch and be off govt programs, but every time I get offered an opportunity for a better job it looks like it will only land me in deep debt very fast. I would need to MORE THAN DOUBLE my income in order to afford any better life than I currently have, a smaller raise would only hurt not help. |
Yes but its a stepping stone. This year it may be back breaking, but usually people get raises and promotions.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 4:10 am
| amother wrote: | | OP here, the reality is that our community takes advantage of the system. Was food stamps, medicaid, WIC, section 8 and all the other programs put in place so that people can get married young, have no means of support, (join kollel) and now "legitimately" qualify for the programs??? I think I read a few months ago that in a certain frum neighborhood, 93% were on medicaid. Is that what the programs r there for? In short, I would imagine they were intended for people who who r making an effort to support themselves but for whatever reason can't. I'm not bashing kollel. My DH has several family members that live the kollel lifestyle and I have the utmost respect for them. That being said, to be fair, I'm not sure I can differentiate a kollel family that is on programs and a guy who either works off the books, or purposely doesn't try to increase his income bec. his family will lose program eligibility. In both instances they are circumventing the real reason the program was put in place. |
93% of the people on Medicaid means an even higher percentage of earners are circumventing the system. The percentage of earners is closer to 100% than 90% because of the large families. That means almost everyone who works does it off the books. There are only very few exceptions like those that sell life insurance for large National companies and get W2s.
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MamaBear
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 6:00 am
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I haven't read all the responses on the last page or so but one way to move forward? Be financially stable before having children. But that's not what young frum couples are supposed to do, right?
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amother
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 7:10 am
Let me start by saying I do not he any govt assistance and I never have had any. I am not eligible.
I just do not get all the negative associations with it. The democrats make it there for the taking. They dont care how many kids you have or whether you try and get a decent job or not. They want to give it away. I am not talking about those who dont declare income and he assistance that way. If they have a rav that says its ok so be it and if they nevr asked and do anyway they will be held accountable. I see nothing wrong with someone having several kids and getting food stamps or medicaid!! Id rather they get my tax money than many of the other nationalities down the block who will take my tax money gladly.
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Barbara
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 7:14 am
| amother wrote: | Its super frustrating.
Wish there was a solution other than lying and twisting the system but it seems there isn't unless someone here will enlighten us |
Lying and twisting the system will indeed help.
You can have a roof over your head and 3 squares -- kosher -- all on the government's dime for, what, 2 to 6?
In the meantime, your kids can be supported through the foster care system.
Its a win-win for you.
And, honestly, what I think should happen to people who commit welfare fraud.
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chocolate chips
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 7:23 am
I just want to say that in the African American population there is an even higher rate of cheating the system. So while it is a "Jewish" thing to feel owed to by the government and take as much as you can, it is not only Jews who do this.
Besides for this, the system in America is so screwed it practically makes it impossible to live. Literally impossible. Anyone middle class, who makes enough to "cover expenses" are slapped with huge taxes, the need to pay for Health insurance which costs beyond 2 arms and 2 legs, and no help whatsoever when in fact they are the ones who need it most.
It is practically insane. Even government officials themselves say this.
Its a catch 22. Either you are insanely wealthy (how you made the money, well we won't go in to that) or you are deathly poor but hey you get free housing and health care. Anywhere in the middle and well, you are poorer than poor but it is not acknowledge able.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 7:36 am
Besides for this, the system in America is so screwed it practically makes it impossible to live. Literally impossible. Anyone middle class, who makes enough to "cover expenses" are slapped with huge taxes, the need to pay for Health insurance which costs beyond 2 arms and 2 legs, and no help whatsoever when in fact they are the ones who need it most.
It is practically insane. Even government officials themselves say this.
This is just not true. In the frum community where we feel we have to live in certain communities where the housing cost is double or triple what it is elsewhere combined with massive tuition costs, makes it difficult. For a non jewish person living in, say Minnesota, sending 3 kids to free public school, its significantly more manageable to the extent that they don't feel the need to play (cheat) the system.
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amother
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 7:39 am
| MamaBear wrote: | | Be financially stable before having children. |
Yes! That is the solution. Someone posted a few pages back that they were struggling, and didn't know how they were going to manage once they had 2-3 more kids. I'm not necessarily advocating having fewer kids, but make sure you can afford them before having them!
Another solution is to stop living above your means. There is no sense of the class system in the frum world. In the secular world there are people who are wealthy who can own a house, send their kids to private school, and throw lavish weddings. There are also people who are not well off, and they rent, send their kids to public school, and throw much smaller weddings. But in the frum world, everyone expects to live as if they were the top 1%! For those who are actually in the 1%, great! But the majority of frum Jews are not, and should stop trying to live like they are.
Try explaining to your non-frum neighbor that in a one income family, you plan to send 5 kids to private school, own a house, and pay $25,000+ per wedding. They will laugh at you.
| chocolate chips wrote: | | I just want to say that in the African American population there is an even higher rate of cheating the system. So while it is a "Jewish" thing to feel owed to by the government and take as much as you can, it is not only Jews who do this. |
Do we really want to compare ourselves to other welfare abusers? Aren't we, as Jews, supposed to be better than that?
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Barbara
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 7:41 am
| chocolate chips wrote: | I just want to say that in the African American population there is an even higher rate of cheating the system. So while it is a "Jewish" thing to feel owed to by the government and take as much as you can, it is not only Jews who do this.
Besides for this, the system in America is so screwed it practically makes it impossible to live. Literally impossible. Anyone middle class, who makes enough to "cover expenses" are slapped with huge taxes, the need to pay for Health insurance which costs beyond 2 arms and 2 legs, and no help whatsoever when in fact they are the ones who need it most.
It is practically insane. Even government officials themselves say this.
Its a catch 22. Either you are insanely wealthy (how you made the money, well we won't go in to that) or you are deathly poor but hey you get free housing and health care. Anywhere in the middle and well, you are poorer than poor but it is not acknowledge able. |
I don't know what the rates are of committing government fraud in any particular community. I hope that its quite low in the Jewish community. I find it absolutely disgusting that you're accusing people of other ethnicities of fraud. In any case, even if fraud rates are high in some communities, do you think that justifies it? And how can anyone claim to live according to Torah while at the same time lying and stealing?
But in any case, your premise is wrong. People in America can live, and can live well, without committing felonies. Go to school. Get an education. Get a job. Work hard. Live within your means. If a "starter home" in the neighborhood you want to live in is $500,000, and you can't afford that, live in a different neighborhood, or rent until you can afford it. If you can't afford to pay your bills and send your kids to private school, then send your kids to public school. If you can't afford to pay your bills while one parent doesn't work (stay at home parent or kollel), then look for a job.
And yes, I live what I say. I wanted to stay home with my child. We couldn't afford it; I got a job. We wanted a big house with a yard; we couldn't afford it, so we bought what we could afford. Etc.
As to healthcare, if you'd like to see some relief for the middle class, vote your interests. From a site that is AGAINST government assistance, by the way:
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chocolate chips
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 7:48 am
| Barbara wrote: | I don't know what the rates are of committing government fraud in any particular community. I hope that its quite low in the Jewish community. I find it absolutely disgusting that you're accusing people of other ethnicities of fraud. In any case, even if fraud rates are high in some communities, do you think that justifies it? And how can anyone claim to live according to Torah while at the same time lying and stealing?
But in any case, your premise is wrong. People in America can live, and can live well, without committing felonies. Go to school. Get an education. Get a job. Work hard. Live within your means. If a "starter home" in the neighborhood you want to live in is $500,000, and you can't afford that, live in a different neighborhood, or rent until you can afford it. If you can't afford to pay your bills and send your kids to private school, then send your kids to public school. If you can't afford to pay your bills while one parent doesn't work (stay at home parent or kollel), then look for a job.
And yes, I live what I say. I wanted to stay home with my child. We couldn't afford it; I got a job. We wanted a big house with a yard; we couldn't afford it, so we bought what we could afford. Etc.
As to healthcare, if you'd like to see some relief for the middle class, vote your interests. From a site that is AGAINST government assistance, by the way:
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I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am merely stating a fact. Everyone is saying how all the Jews cheat and commit fraud, I am simply saying it is not only the Jews, and I heard this fact from an African American herself.
As for the rest, like another poster wrote and correctly so, as a Jew it is not so simple to move to other areas and send to public school. As much as Minnesota sounds nice, how many Jews are there? A shul? a frum school for my kids? As much as we all hate it, or so it seems from your post and many others, being Jewish comes with certain necessities and sadly the ones who are in control of those, and by that I mean frum landlords who have houses and apartments in frum communities seem to think they can charge insane prices for tiny apartments. They think they can crack down on the # of kids a couple can have if they want to live in their apartment when we ALL know and keep the mitzvah of peru urevu.
Like it or not that is the way it is.
I never said people in America cannot live, they can. It is just way harder than in many other places. Like my friend who lives in Canada and said it is just as expensive as in NY, maybe so but she has free healthcare. Without the worry that I have free healthcare under.
As for voting, I cannot do that. If I could you bet I would vote for someone who has more of a sensible approach to healthcare, government aid and lifestyle in general.
Nothing anyone will say will change my thoughts that America (NY state especially) sucks as a place to live right now. Even the guy in Minnesota with his cheap mortgage and 3 kids in public school will tell you that.
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MaBelleVie
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 7:51 am
You stated an opinion, not a fact. By any stretch.
And people can almost always find a frum community where they can live within their means, but they end up whining while they stay in their $$$$ in town communities for all sorts of irrelevant reasons.
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Peanut2
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Fri, Aug 15 2014, 7:51 am
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How do people actually cheat the government? There is all this talk of fraud, but how does it actually happen? And what are people doing that they can do it all under the table? I mean, I know cleaning ladies and housekeepers and day-laborers who wait at the corner are sometimes paid under the table, so to speak. But what are all these frum people doing? What jobs?
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