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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Tznius tznius tznius, how to provide dd with a balance
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amother


 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 1:49 pm
My daughter is entering 9th grade and we just received the booklet of info from the school. There are about 2 pages of rules related to tznius, including the type of shoes and hair accessories to wear. I actually do not have a problem with any of the rules and mostly we are already sticking to them just because I think that they create a more bas yisroel type of look, so nothing is really new for us and my dd should not have a prob following them. My issue is in the fact that there doesn't seem to be a good balance bet. tznius and other important topics like nice midos. I wish there was another paper in the mailing saying that the school expects the girls to treat the teachers with derech eretz, that the girls that were in the elementary should try to be warm and friendly to the new students, etc.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 2:03 pm
It''s a big problem you have raised! A huge one!

In my high school, I appreciated the fact that the uniform rules weren't Tznius rules, but dress code rules. If you want your daughter following them in general, then it's not so much of a problem, but if not I would explain to her that this is the school's dress code and we have to do things the way they want to in school.

About the Middos, it would be truly amazing if schools emphasized this, but if they don't then it starts in the home. YOU need to educate your daughter about the importance of having respect for teachers, being friendly to new girls exc. You also need to model it. Don't criticize your daughter's teachers in front of her. If you don't have respect for them why should she? Encourage her to make friends with new girls, invite them over exc, study with them.

Hatzlacha Rabba!
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 2:24 pm
amother wrote:
My daughter is entering 9th grade and we just received the booklet of info from the school. There are about 2 pages of rules related to tznius, including the type of shoes and hair accessories to wear. I actually do not have a problem with any of the rules and mostly we are already sticking to them just because I think that they create a more bas yisroel type of look, so nothing is really new for us and my dd should not have a prob following them. My issue is in the fact that there doesn't seem to be a good balance bet. tznius and other important topics like nice midos. I wish there was another paper in the mailing saying that the school expects the girls to treat the teachers with derech eretz, that the girls that were in the elementary should try to be warm and friendly to the new students, etc.


In defense of the school (see, guys, I'm defending what is probably a right wing school!), its a lot easier to put a dress code into words than it is to define what good midos means.

And while there can be endless discussion as to whether this skirt vs that skirt is tzniut, making it necessary to draw a line with a dress code, everyone should know that certain things just aren't nice. Meaning that they don't have to be set out.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 3:17 pm
Barbara wrote:
In defense of the school (see, guys, I'm defending what is probably a right wing school!), its a lot easier to put a dress code into words than it is to define what good midos means.

I know in Europe many public high schools have a list of rules including tznius related issues (like don't come naked to school) and midos related things like be nice, behave well, etc. So I don't see how it would be so hard for FRUM schools to do so.
I also have a problem with all this tznius, not because I think people shouldn't care about it (I am what people would consider very tzanua) but it reduces tznius to the color of stockings and exact length of the skirt you should be wearing. Tznius is much more than fashion styles to start with.
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mdoif




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 3:19 pm
Barbara wrote:
In defense of the school (see, guys, I'm defending what is probably a right wing school!), its a lot easier to put a dress code into words than it is to define what good midos means.

And while there can be endless discussion as to whether this skirt vs that skirt is tzniut, making it necessary to draw a line with a dress code, everyone should know that certain things just aren't nice. Meaning that they don't have to be set out.


Probably Satmar as they don't have a uniform, so they have to define exactly what the parameters of their dress code are (and yes it does get a bit long in the tooth).

Middos are self understood, as is for example the rule that you don't walk into class on your hands and knees, and don't have to be spelled out before the term begins.
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the world's best mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 3:34 pm
You can tell kids Tznius guidelines before school starts and expect most of them to buy the right stuff. But you can't demand good Middos and expect everyone to go buy the right ones and come to school fully stocked. Middos are something we have to work on. Children need to constantly be taught and coached about the proper way to behave. It's not black and white like covering knees and elbows, nor is it as simple.

To properly teach Middos to children, you don't hand out a little handbook saying, "You may not get angry. You must be generous. You may not be lazy..."

Instead, you observe the childrens' behavior and help them work on the areas in which they are lacking. You tell stories that illustrate the importance of good Middos and give tips to help kids acquire them. You reward them when it's appropriate to do so. And perhaps most importantly, you show them good examples of good Middos with your own behavior.

Middos development needs to be worked on both at home and at school and anywhere your child will be spending his/her time regularly.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 3:48 pm
mdoif wrote:
Probably Satmar as they don't have a uniform, so they have to define exactly what the parameters of their dress code are (and yes it does get a bit long in the tooth).

Middos are self understood, as is for example the rule that you don't walk into class on your hands and knees, and don't have to be spelled out before the term begins.


Wow! I beg to differ on that one. Middos are modeled. The entire Sefer Berashis is a model for how we are supposed to behave. We are supposed to emulate the Avos and Imahos. Middos are taught in the Torah even before the Mitzvos are, as you cannot properly fulfill the Mitzvos without Middos.

Sadly, I see them really lacking in certain parts of the Frum world.
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 3:56 pm
amother wrote:
My daughter is entering 9th grade and we just received the booklet of info from the school. There are about 2 pages of rules related to tznius, including the type of shoes and hair accessories to wear. I actually do not have a problem with any of the rules and mostly we are already sticking to them just because I think that they create a more bas yisroel type of look, so nothing is really new for us and my dd should not have a prob following them. My issue is in the fact that there doesn't seem to be a good balance bet. tznius and other important topics like nice midos. I wish there was another paper in the mailing saying that the school expects the girls to treat the teachers with derech eretz, that the girls that were in the elementary should try to be warm and friendly to the new students, etc.


There are various standards of Tznius. The school follows standard x for reasons you (teenage daughter) either understand or don't. Either way, while in school, you follow the school standard. But during holiday, you follow the standard of your dear mother LOL
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mdoif




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 4:04 pm
out-of-towner wrote:
Wow! I beg to differ on that one. Middos are modeled. The entire Sefer Berashis is a model for how we are supposed to behave. We are supposed to emulate the Avos and Imahos. Middos are taught in the Torah even before the Mitzvos are, as you cannot properly fulfill the Mitzvos without Middos.

Sadly, I see them really lacking in certain parts of the Frum world.


You misunderstood. I meant to say that it's self understood the school wants the girls to have good middos, and it doesn't need to spell it out explicitly in a letter prior to the beginning of the term.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 4:13 pm
mdoif wrote:
You misunderstood. I meant to say that it's self understood the school wants the girls to have good middos, and it doesn't need to spell it out explicitly in a letter prior to the beginning of the term.


Really? It's self-understood? Than please explain to me why whenever I'm in certain predominately Chassidush areas no one ever thinks to hold the door open for me when I'm struggling with a stroller coming in and out of stores? And no, it's not an isolated incident, it happens to me All The Time! Please also explain to me how people are so pushy. And how you can justify the massive Chillul Hashem that goes on in the catskills every year?

Middos are sorely lacking in the Frum world as a whole, and I truly feel that it is sad!
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 4:54 pm
I'd just like to share a story here, which I may or may not have previously shared. I know a woman who teaches in a chassidishe school. She's the daughter of a well respected family, and teaches a few specific classes. In one of the schools she teaches in, the classroom was one chair short last year. Everyday she came to class, and all of the girls would take their seats. No one even thought of offering it to the teacher (this is a problem on behalf of both the girls and the school). Anyways, the first time someone was absent and there was another chair available, a girl decided to put her belongings on the chair. After class, the teacher called her over for a private discussion. The girl had no idea what the teacher was trying to say. She didn't understand why one would need to offer a chair to a teacher because all of the teachers stand and none of the other teachers have ever said anything. Mind boggling. (These were 10th graders). When I was in school we stood up when teachers entered the classroom and would never place our belongings on an extra chair, even when a teacher already had one!!
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 5:14 pm
Scrabble123 wrote:
I'd just like to share a story here, which I may or may not have previously shared. I know a woman who teaches in a chassidishe school. She's the daughter of a well respected family, and teaches a few specific classes. In one of the schools she teaches in, the classroom was one chair short last year. Everyday she came to class, and all of the girls would take their seats. No one even thought of offering it to the teacher (this is a problem on behalf of both the girls and the school). Anyways, the first time someone was absent and there was another chair available, a girl decided to put her belongings on the chair. After class, the teacher called her over for a private discussion. The girl had no idea what the teacher was trying to say. She didn't understand why one would need to offer a chair to a teacher because all of the teachers stand and none of the other teachers have ever said anything. Mind boggling. (These were 10th graders). When I was in school we stood up when teachers entered the classroom and would never place our belongings on an extra chair, even when a teacher already had one!!


Doesn't boggle my mind at all.

I've never seen a teacher sit while teaching. If the students were to give her a seat, one would be standing -- making it difficult for her to take notes -- while the chair would go unused. It makes no sense.

It also doesn't make sense that if the teacher wanted a chair, she didn't ask the administration for one after the first day.

But the fact is that middot cannot be listed in a page or two, the way a dress code can. You can't think of every point.

Dress code, on the other hand, is pretty finite. And it needs to be communicated in advance so people don't buy the wrong things, since there is no absolute standard of tzniut. Eg, flowered skirts are perfectly modest, but if the school says solid only, they can't be worn to school.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 5:32 pm
Barbara wrote:
Doesn't boggle my mind at all.

I've never seen a teacher sit while teaching. If the students were to give her a seat, one would be standing -- making it difficult for her to take notes -- while the chair would go unused. It makes no sense.

It also doesn't make sense that if the teacher wanted a chair, she didn't ask the administration for one after the first day.

But the fact is that middot cannot be listed in a page or two, the way a dress code can. You can't think of every point.

Dress code, on the other hand, is pretty finite. And it needs to be communicated in advance so people don't buy the wrong things, since there is no absolute standard of tzniut. Eg, flowered skirts are perfectly modest, but if the school says solid only, they can't be worn to school.


I agree 100% about the inability to list middot the way a dress code is able to be.

The teacher's issue was not with the girls using the chairs, but with the girls placing their items on it when another student was absent. She spoke privately to the girl to wake up some kind of felling of respect, but the girl didn't get it. She didn't punish her or push the topic either, as she saw there was no point in proceeding with someone who doesn't understand.

She could have asked for a chair and so too could the students have asked. I'm not too far away from that generation (I was in high school less than a decade ago), and I was shocked the entire situation including the school not ensuring there are enough chairs.
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Kitten




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 5:38 pm
Barbara wrote:
Dress code, on the other hand, is pretty finite. And it needs to be communicated in advance so people don't buy the wrong things, since there is no absolute standard of tzniut. Eg, flowered skirts are perfectly modest, but if the school says solid only, they can't be worn to school.

Yes, the "dress code" should be defined. The problem is, a particular dress code (or standard of tznius) is presented as the essence of tznius (tznius is more than a dress code anyway) and the main thing you think about. Maybe it isn't meant to be interpreted this way, but at the end, "tznius" becomes an obsession and other important things like middos become secondary.
Disclaimer: those are my own feelings and you may think otherwise. I know for a fact that in many schools it is not like that.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 6:36 pm
OP here. Thank you so much for the responses, it is helpful for me to hear defense of the school, I would rather think positively about this issue. It's true, there is no clear way to define midos. This also gives me defense when everyone bashes the schools for their rules and lack of focus on other things - it is simply easier to define tznius rules than anything else. At the same time, I think a balance would be nicer, where there were suggested items to work on related to midos, etc. Also, thanks for the advice on building up the midos at home!
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Gitch




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 13 2014, 7:35 pm
While many of you have explained the school's perspective, the question still remains why there is 2 full pages of tznius regulations, but nothing on middos. Yes, middos are hard to quantify, but schools should at least explain what their ethos is in regards to behavioral expectations from students and staff. What kind of ruach and environment they seek to foster...which is hard to say, if their push is solely on the externals, with little regards to internals.

The problem is when there is little to no focus on middos, with the expectation that everyone knows what they are, and obsessive focus on dress. Or even worse, the push for tznius in a way that is counter to middos tovos.

OP, it seems like you might be at odds with some hashkafos of the school, get ready to do some damage control at home for the next four years!
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amother


 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 9:24 am
Gitch wrote:
While many of you have explained the school's perspective, the question still remains why there is 2 full pages of tznius regulations, but nothing on middos. Yes, middos are hard to quantify, but schools should at least explain what their ethos is in regards to behavioral expectations from students and staff. What kind of ruach and environment they seek to foster...which is hard to say, if their push is solely on the externals, with little regards to internals.

The problem is when there is little to no focus on middos, with the expectation that everyone knows what they are, and obsessive focus on dress. Or even worse, the push for tznius in a way that is counter to middos tovos.

OP, it seems like you might be at odds with some hashkafos of the school, get ready to do some damage control at home for the next four years!


OP here, I don't really see myself at odds with hashkafos of the school, I think it's a widespread issue, and I am actually very pleased with the tznius rules, just wish there was a better balance. I am guilty of the same thing at home, focusing more on tznius, since it's so obvious and clear-cut, as opposed to behavior which is more of a gray area (is a comment really chutzpah, are siblings able to talk a certain way to each other - who started it, etc.).
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amother


 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 9:29 am
I think many schools are afraid to touch on middos because there is a gray line and they do not want to be considered extremists or old fashioned!
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 9:41 am
amother wrote:
I think many schools are afraid to touch on middos because there is a gray line and they do not want to be considered extremists or old fashioned!

I would say the opposite, there are lots of gray lines in tznius but not in middos. Maybe that's why they feel the need to spell out their specific tznius requirements. It's hard to be as specific with middos as with tznius, but general guidelines would be nice.
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 14 2014, 9:46 am
glutenless wrote:
I would say the opposite, there are lots of gray lines in tznius but not in middos. Maybe that's why they feel the need to spell out their specific tznius requirements. It's hard to be as specific with middos as with tznius, but general guidelines would be nice.


I'm wonder what types of guidelines you are talking about?
I see the importance in discussing it simply because it wakes up the idea that "middos are important," but not because there is a need for guidelines.
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