Lubavitch vs other Hassidic

amother

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 6:30 am

chocolate moose wrote:

Lubavitch is Chabad and one of the only Chabad groups left; chochmah bina daas. Other chassidic groups are Chagas - chesses, gevurah, tifereth.

We've discussed this a million times here, do a search.

Thanks for the tip about what's in the archives... the regular search gave me no results when used "Lubavitch vs Hasidic." The advanced search offered over 5k postings, I got through 20 pages and stopped searching.

So again, why do some say Lubavitch/Chabad are not Hassidic? Why do they have separate forums?

Kitten

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 6:31 am

amother wrote:

A bit off topic :
Where can I start learning to become lubavitch? Ive always liked that chassidus and would like to learn about it and all the nuances too.

Any leading info is appreciated- thank u

Becoming Lubavitch and learning Chabad chassidus are two different things. Of course, if you become Lubavitch, you will also learn the chassidus.
If you want to become Lubavitch, I guess you should first take contact with a local community. They will advise you on switching nusach (if need be), adopting minhogim, etc. I'm sure you'll also find things like Tanya classes, etc. cHabad communities tend to be very welcoming, so I don't think you'll have any problems on this side.
I'm not sure what you mean by learning the nuances of Chabad(-Lubavitch) chassidus. Do you mean learning about different historical branches of Chabad, or just learning the chassidus in depth? In any case, it depends on current level of knowledge and learning capabilities. Are you able to learn seforim by yourself? There are many seforim to learn. There are also many nice books in English books (look here http://store.kehotonline.com/I.....=3206). And of course, chabad.org can be very useful.

Kitten

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 6:40 am

amother wrote:

So again, why do some say Lubavitch/Chabad are not Hassidic? Why do they have separate forums?

Chabad is chassidic! What people generally call "chassidish", which there is no exact definition for it, are the Hungarian Chassidic communities. It is somewhat similar to "heimish", which generally refers to people with strong Hungarian ties who speak Yiddish, like Satmar. Chassidish implies a cultural element.
In Chabad, the cultural identity is not so strong, unless you are Russian and/or come from a very old Chabad family.

amother

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 6:53 am

imasoftov wrote:

OK, I'm not going to get an answer by asking non-Chabad chassidish women if they use the term themselves. So here's an experiment - non-Chabad chassidish women, could you please ask your husband or adult sons

1) What does "Chagas" mean?
2) Does that describe us?

so, let me ask you a question.

Why is all the learning and understanding of Chassidus relegated to men?

Can YOU explain the philosophical differences between Chabad and non-Chabad chassidus? (forget about the term Chagas -- just tell me what the basic teachings of Chassidus are, and how it differs from Litvish or other forms of Judaism. without talking about dress.)

shluchamom

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 6:56 am

Kitten wrote:

Becoming Lubavitch and learning Chabad chassidus are two different things. Of course, if you become Lubavitch, you will also learn the chassidus.
If you want to become Lubavitch, I guess you should first take contact with a local community. They will advise you on switching nusach (if need be), adopting minhogim, etc. I'm sure you'll also find things like Tanya classes, etc. cHabad communities tend to be very welcoming, so I don't think you'll have any problems on this side.
I'm not sure what you mean by learning the nuances of Chabad(-Lubavitch) chassidus. Do you mean learning about different historical branches of Chabad, or just learning the chassidus in depth? In any case, it depends on current level of knowledge and learning capabilities. Are you able to learn seforim by yourself? There are many seforim to learn. There are also many nice books in English books (look here http://store.kehotonline.com/I.....ptid= 3206). And of course, chabad.org can be very useful.

Just to comment on the bold noone will tell someone to change nussach or minhagim. That's a personal decision that a person can choose after learning and understanding what they learnt.
The other suggestions are good ones.

Kitten

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 7:11 am

shluchamom wrote:

I said advise you on (if this question occurs to you), not tell you to. When I got married, this question did occur to me as regards nusach, and I decided to keep my own for a long time.

amother

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 8:12 am

Another major difference between Lubavitch and other Chasidic groups is the controversy that surrounds them because of the messianic elements in it.I don't want to bring this controversy up as a topic of cenversation but if the differences between Lubavitch and other Chasidc groups are being discussed it can't be ignored.

Jeanette

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 9:03 am

amother wrote:

Irrelevant. Satmar is highly controversial but nobody questions whether they're "chassidish."

Lubavitch is considered set apart from other chassidic groups because of the perception that they are "more modern," don't dress according to chassidish standards, don't grow long payos, don't speak Yiddish exclusively, don't settle in a handful of enclaves, etc. Controversies about Moshiach have nothing to do with it.

LiLIsraeli

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 11:04 am

I think the main aspects that define non-Chabad chassidim (who do not refer to themselves as "chagas") are:
1) Adherence to a Rebbe and following him in all matters
2) Emotional connection to Judaism focusing on prayer and performing mitzvos with joy
3) Mode of dress - style of hat, socks, pants, overcoat, etc.
4) Insularity - tend to keep to themselves and marry within their own; not welcoming outsiders.

The term "chassidish" is used differently by Chabad chassidim and non-Chabad chassidim. In Chabad, "chassidish" tends to mean religious. Therefore, saying someone is not chassidish is a big insult.

In non-Chabad chassidus, "chassidish" is just a statement of fact. Either one is chassidish (follows a Rebbe, dresses a certain way, etc) or he isn't - and one can be frum and not chassidish.

I have seen Chabad posters become insulted when non-Chabad posters called them "not chassidish." No harm was meant, of course, but it was a misunderstanding.

Jeanette

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 11:16 am

LiLIsraeli wrote:

Lubavitch does not use the term chassidish to mean religious. It means extra-super religious. Example, you can be frum and not say Chitas, but if you're chassidish you say Chitas, you say the whole Tehillim on Shabbos mevorchim, you learn Tanya and Likutei Sichos, you go on mivtzoyim, and you are excited by these things. Not everyone Lubavitch necessarily aspires to be chassidish.

LiLIsraeli

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 11:25 am

Jeanette wrote:

Thank you for correcting me.

I may not be fully clear on the exact implications of "chassidish" in different communities. It is clear to me that Chabad and non-Chabad chassidim have a different connotation of the word "Chassidish."

What I have learned from your post is that the more chassidish a Lubavitch person is, the more things they do that are specific to Chabad. When a non-Chabad chassid is chassidish, he prays more, he abstains from physical pleasures more, he is more stringent with kashrus, etc. Not necessarily learning more of his specific Rebbe's teachings, but things that are applicable to all Jews.

I think that is the main reason why non-Chabad chassidim don't consider Chabad in the same category of Chassidus.

gittelchana

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 11:38 am

amother wrote:

In Chabad, women learn Chassidus. In Chagas, even men don't really learn Chassidus.

amother

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 11:40 am

gittelchana wrote:

In Chabad, women learn Chassidus. In Chagas, even men don't really learn Chassidus.

I don't think you should use the term chagas if that's not the term they use for themselves.

Do you know this for a fact? That men don't study chassidus?

Kitten

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 11:57 am

amother wrote:

Do you know this for a fact? That men don't study chassidus?

I didn't say this, but I confirm the poster's comment. I know for a fact that in Satmar many men are reluctant to learn chassidus, actually I would say to learn the more mystical oriented things. It doesn't mean they don't learn at all, and most people have many Chassidic seforim. There are several reasons for this.

Frumdoc

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 12:25 pm

The long - short idea reminds me of the breslov ideas, is that also a chabad type. The ones I know, mostly later "converts" to breslov, even those who take on the levush, have a great deal of focus on self improvement, tefillah rather than the rebbe. Although I guess there is the Uman thing. I really admire the chabad ideology, or at least what I know of it.

smily

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 1:46 pm

Being that Lubavitch is from Russia and not Poland. The levush was a bit different. The levush related to the area that the Chassidim come from, even the different Chassidim dress in their unique style relating to how there Rebbe dressed etc. The Payos I heard are not left long because they would be yanked out by the non jews though not sure that is correct. Yet they were very strict to keep the beard and would cover with scarf in the streets to protect themselves. The levush of Chabbad is similar in some ways to the litvish (hat, Payos) and that is agaiin I think due to area they lived in.
Girls learning Chassidus is encouraged by Chabad but not by other Chassidim. I remember years back a Mother being upset that the School I went to was teaching Chumash to girls.

Kitten

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 1:57 pm

[quote="smilyThe Payos I heard are not left long because they would be yanked out by the non jews though not sure that is correct.[/quote]
I heard it's because they shouldn't be separated from the beard (from a kabbalistic point of view). The Rebbe didn't have peyos.

gittelchana

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 2:10 pm

smily wrote:

Not true.

Chabad doesn't grow long Payos because of how the works of the Arizal are interpreted. Has nothing to do with non jews yanking them. non jews in Russia would often torture Jews and cut their beards, Chabad Chassidim didn't cut their beards because of it. Many kept their beards even under communism, even though it required Mesirus Nefesh.