Intermarriage | Imamother

newkallah

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 1:02 pm

So I belong to another forum. And someone said they married a [gentile] but wants her kid to speak Hebrew. I commented and said that intermarriage is unacceptable. Then I got attacked by so many people for my opinion. Now the admin had kicked me off the forum.

What did I do wrong? Sure maybe I should have said it in a better way. But I don't think I should have been kicked off the group.

ora_43

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 1:15 pm

Each forum has its own rules. Just like imamother wouldn't allow posts saying intermarriage is OK, some forums don't allow posts saying it isn't.

I think it was a mistake to try to give tochacha to someone in a situation like that. If you want to tell someone they're doing something wrong, it has to be said in a way that has some chance of reaching them. You don't say something like that to a stranger, all the more so not to a stranger on the internet (where it's so easy to misread the "tone" of a post), all the more so, not to a stranger on the internet on a forum (I.e. "in front of" people instead of by private message).

eta - realizing I gave you tochacha exactly in the way I said shouldn't be done LOL

. I was assuming it's OK because you started this thread - hope I wasn't mistaken.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 1:53 pm

There, there.

What you did wasn't helpful. If she had been contemplating marrying the guy, your remark might have made sense, but she already had, and was wondering how to keep a Jewish connection for her Jewish child. Her kids are Jews. You know that.

You didn't answer her original question.

One super, super, super-obvious answer to her question is: have the kid learn alongside his father, as his father studies for conversion.

She might not have found that possible but it would have made some sense.

mdoif

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 3:42 pm

ora_43 wrote:

. I was assuming it's OK because you started this thread - hope I wasn't mistaken.

I respectfully disagree. This is not about giving tochacha but about making it known that what she did is totally unacceptable. IMPO showing 'acceptance' towards Jews who married out, is to convey the message to Hashem that His Will is chalilah irrelevant. We must train ourselves to love those whom Hashem loves, and no less important to hate those whom Hashem hates and to abhor that which Hashem finds abhorrent.

This is not sinas chinam but ahavas Hashem. אוהבי ה' שנאו רע.

I do not wish to get into a flame war with the liberals here, but I have already pointed out that Liberalism has made it a much greater sin to be holier-than-thou than lowlier-than-thou, but this is the antithesis of the torah's view.

sequoia

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 3:57 pm

Generally, things we say to others should have some constructive purpose. Hence, the laws of reproof. There is no sense in reproving someone when you will not be heard.

OP, what you said was not well-mannered. She wasn't asking your opinion on her marriage. You ought to imagine how you would feel if a random stranger told you there is something wrong with your marriage or family. You would think them very rude, wouldn't you?

That said, the admin should have explained all this to you in a PM, rather than banning.

mdoif

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:15 pm

grace413 wrote:

Do you think Hashem hates people who intermarry?

Of course. Although we do find in sifrei chassidus talk about Hashem eternal and infallible love for every single Jew, that is not 'pshat', and is to be understood in a kabalistic way. The simple rule which we find in all pre-chassidus seforim (Nach, Chazal, rishonim, achronim) is that Hashem kavyochol hates those who defy Him.

[I wrote kavyochol because all emotions are physical and Hashem is neither a גוף nor does He have any physical attributes. We only find these emotions attributed to Hashem in a way that is 'to please the ear', I.e. to use concepts to which us mortals can relate.]

Mommy3.5

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:27 pm

Mdoif, you are the exact opposite of Hahem. He hates the sin, not the person. It hurts him to punish people. and we are taught to love everybody. Bnei yisroel sin often in tanach, but never does hashem stop loving.

You do realze this women has a Jewish neshama, as do her children. Instead of showing love, and possibly ending up bringing Jewish neshamas back where they belong, The op ticked off a mother who was attempting to give her children something jewish, and now might have insulted her to the point that they are lost to us forever. One unkind comment, and you never know what it causes.

Vahavta lereacha kamocha. leave the judging to god.

mdoif

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:31 pm

We don't all defy Him, we stumble and fall. Most of us, myself included, don't lie when we say viduy on Yom Kippur...

However someone who does aveiros defiantly - with complete disregard to the torah - is in a completely different category. This is not that difficult a concept to grasp, and it happens to be that halocho also differentiates between a frum Yid who unfortunately sins, and someone who totally disregards the torah (thus earning the dubious title of 'mumar' - מומר).

I'd like to understand the mindset of those who have a problem with this simple truth; according to you does Hashem simply not care (kavyochol) whether we listen to Him or not? Do you never read the second parsha of Shema?

Peanut2

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:34 pm

huh?

Hashem wants people to make teshuva. We must daven that people make teshuva, and not that they will be punished.

When interacting with others we must ask ourselves whether our behavior is in accordance with halacha, and when we encounters others who are sinning we should lead them to teshuva.

In the case of a person who is married to a non-Jew such words alienate them and makes teshuva far less likely. Instead, be a good non-judgmental role model. Lead them to teshuva and to Judaism and Torah.

grace413

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:36 pm

Certainly Hashem cares what we do. And when we sin whether defiantly or out of weakness or by accident, Hashem is troubled, Hashem is disappointed, Hashem is possibly even angry.

But hate? No. And Hashem is always hoping that whoever sins will do teshuva. Hashem does not hate us.

tigerwife

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:45 pm

I'd hazard a guess that most Jews who intermarry would fall into the category of tinok shenishba. They are not trying to defy G-d, they just have little or no background of Judaism to keep them grounded.
Not saying that deliberate intermarriage is non-existent, but I doubt we can judge. It's sad but a lot of Jews can't be blamed.

mdoif

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:55 pm

Mommy3.5 wrote:

There are soooo many sources that say the opposite of that, but I'll just bring two pesukim of Tehilim, one about Hashem hating reshaim and the other about our obligation to do the same.

ה' צַדִּיק יִבְחָן: וְרָשָׁע, וְאֹהֵב חָמָס--שָׂנְאָה נַפְשׁוֹ.

הֲלוֹא-מְשַׂנְאֶיךָ ה' אֶשְׂנָא; וּבִתְקוֹמְמֶיךָ, אֶתְקוֹטָט

Edit:
Veahavta lereacha komocho ONLY applies to frum Jews - as with all the mitzvos bein odom lechaveiro.

As I said, I really don't want any flame wars, but you will note that I haven't written anything personally offensive to anyone here (assuming we're all frum), nor have I written anything that wasn't the default hashkofo in all generations up to Liberalism.

Read up on some Rav Avigdor Miller for more.

Last edited by mdoif on Sun, Aug 17 2014, 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Peanut2

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:58 pm

Perhaps at that time, mdoif. So maybe 500 or 1000 years ago a non-frum Jew or one who had intermarried could be considered an apostate.

You need to look at more contemporary sources to consider the issue as it stands these days, when most Jews are raised in a non-frum world. I've definitely heard of opinions that don't go for the whole tink shenishba thing (can't recall who, but something about how people know ABOUT frum Jews and must go and learn and investigate.) But overall current Orthodox opinion is that non-observant Jews are not apostates, mumarim, meshumads, apikursim, whatever. Absolutely not.