Intermarriage | Imamother

gittelchana

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 2:23 pm

mdoif wrote:

Of course. Although we do find in sifrei chassidus talk about Hashem eternal and infallible love for every single Jew, that is not 'pshat', and is to be understood in a kabalistic way. The simple rule which we find in all pre-chassidus seforim (Nach, Chazal, rishonim, achronim) is that Hashem kavyochol hates those who defy Him.

[I wrote kavyochol because all emotions are physical and Hashem is neither a גוף nor does He have any physical attributes. We only find these emotions attributed to Hashem in a way that is 'to please the ear', I.e. to use concepts to which us mortals can relate.]

Aha, so you backhandedly dismiss what is said in Chassidus as not being Pshat and therefore - I guess - it's not practical. Practically speaking we must hate those who aren't keeping Torah and Mitzvos. Am I understanding you correctly? Rolling Eyes

Maybe a little practical application of Chassidus would help you increase your unconditional Ahavas Yisroel.

The opposite of Sinas Chinam is Ahavas Chinam. Chinam means there's no reason and nothing is expected in return, it's "free".

The Beis Hamikdash was destroyed because of Sinas Chinam, Ahavas Chinam will fix the problem and rebuild the Beis Hamikdash. Chinam means that even if you have every reason to hate, you still love, just cuz. You gave many reasons to hate this Jew or that Jew, but that's besides the point. We don't need reasons, we just need Ahavas Yisroel. Pure love. Plain and simple.

Ask yourself this: if it was your own child ch"v..... Would you "hate" them????

mdoif

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 2:39 pm

gittelchana wrote:

No. Chassidus is a an addition to classic thought, not a replacement. In any case, we don't find an inyan to love non-observant Jews, only the idea that Hashem's love to Yidden kavyochol cannot be extinguished. (But understand that according to this concept Hashem also loves Yoshke, but you probably do understand that we have to hate him.)

Ahavas Yisroel only applies to shoimrei torah umitzvos, and you won't find differently anywhere.

Please examine yourself honestly whether you're motivated by Hashem's will or by the pernicious idea of liberalism that has unfortunately entered our society.

chaiz

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 2:44 pm

mdoif wrote:

Sorry you did sound like you backhandedly dismissed chassidus. Chassidus does not necessarily contradict classic thought. Maybe you need some learning to do.
Yes, we do find by many gedolim including the Lubavitcher Rebbe who loved every single Jew because he has a chelek elokai memaal mamash. And do not tell me you are frummer than the Lubavitcher Rebbe zy"a or love Hashem more than him.

gittelchana

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 2:52 pm

mdoif wrote:

Learn Tanya and Chassidus and you'll gain a new perspective. You obviously didn't learn and internalize Chassidus. If you did, you wouldn't write what you wrote.

Chassidus is the luminary of Torah. When you turn on a light, you see things you otherwise wouldn't have seen. But there isn't anything different than "classic" Judaism ch"v.

Barbara

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 2:53 pm

mdoif wrote:

I respectfully disagree. This is not about giving tochacha but about making it known that what she did is totally unacceptable. IMPO showing 'acceptance' towards Jews who married out, is to convey the message to Hashem that His Will is chalilah irrelevant. We must train ourselves to love those whom Hashem loves, and no less important to hate those whom Hashem hates and to abhor that which Hashem finds abhorrent.

This is not sinas chinam but ahavas Hashem. אוהבי ה' שנאו רע.

I do not wish to get into a flame war with the liberals here, but I have already pointed out that Liberalism has made it a much greater sin to be holier-than-thou than lowlier-than-thou, but this is the antithesis of the torah's view.

I have a friend whose daughter intermarried. She went to her MO rabbi, do I cut her off, do I sit shiva? No, the rabbi answered. We don't do that anymore. Once they're married, we reach out to the spouse, hoping they will create a Jewish home, and maybe even convert.

My friend didn't like that answer, so she went to a Yeshivish rabbi. Do I cut her off, do I sit shiva? No, the rabbi answered. We don't do that anymore. Once they're married, we reach out to the spouse, hoping they will create a Jewish home, and maybe even convert.

She kept contacting rabbis. She tried black hat rabbis in Brooklyn. Do I cut her off, do I sit shiva? No, the rabbis answered. We don't do that anymore. Once they're married, we reach out to the spouse, hoping they will create a Jewish home, and maybe even convert.

She couldn't find a rabbi who would say anything else, so finally, she reached out. When the couple had kids, she took them to shul on yom tov. And now, almost 10 years later, he is learning about Judaism in anticipation of conversion.

So my question to you, modify, is, because what you say is contrary to the opinion of all these rabbis, does Hashem hate you?

mdoif

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 3:08 pm

Barbara wrote:

I find that very hard to believe as per dinei geirus. Also, to use the phrase 'Jewish home' for an intermarriage makes as much sense as salting a pig and calling it kosher.

Mommy3.5

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 3:14 pm

mdoif wrote:

Really, then why do think there is so much kiruv rechokim? how do you attract people to be frum, if you can only hate them? how do you expect people to do teshuva, this attitude reinforces that charedim are hateful wack jobs. I am so sad that you are as closeminded as you are. Its a real disservice to those of us who truly care for others, frum or not frum.

This is the year 2014, and if we intend to have frum people in 100 years, we better find a way to love them and show them the beauty of torah and mitzvot. its people like you who cause others to hate frum people and encourage going OTD.

Temilia

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 3:29 pm

mdoif wrote:

Seeing as I quoted you two pesukim in tehilim, do you mind extending me the same courtesy and quoting at least one single verse in Tanya where he writes we must love even mumrim.

From chapter 32 of the first section of Tanya. (Copied from lessons in Tanya via Chabad.org)

I believe the concept you would look for would be in the explanation of the mishna regarding be like the disciples of Aharon.

The rest is a direct copy paste:

The Alter Rebbe proceeds to clarify:

ומה שכתוב בגמרא שמי שרואה בחבירו שחטא, מצוה לשנאותו, וגם לומר לרבו שישנאהו

As for the Talmudic statement 8 that if one sees his friend sinning, he should hate him, and should also relate the fact to his teacher so that he too will hate him, — how does this conform with what was said above?

היינו בחבירו בתורה ומצות

This applies only to one’s companion — one’s equal— in the study of Torah and the observance of the mitzvot.

The sinner in question is a Torah-observant scholar, but has lapsed in this one instance. In this case his sin is much more severe than usual, since it is written that even the inadvertent misdeeds of a scholar are as grave as deliberate sins. 9 But even this general assumption of the gravity of his conduct is not sufficient cause to hate him, as the Alter Rebbe continues. Yet another condition must first be satisfied:

וכבר קיים בו מצות הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך, עם שאתך בתורה ובמצות, ואף על פי כן לא שב מחטאו, כמו שכתוב בספר חרדים

He has also fulfilled with him — with the sinner — the injunction, 10 “You shall repeatedly rebuke your friend.” The word used here for “your friend” (עמיתך) also indicates, as the Talmud points out11 עם שאתך - “him who is on a par with you in the Torah and the mitzvot,” who nevertheless, has not repented of his sin, as it is written in Sefer Charedim.

At this point there is no need to exaggerate the gravity of his sin: it is clearly a deliberate transgression.

אבל מי שאינו חבירו, ואינו מקורב אצלו

But as to one who is not his companion — his equal — in the Torah and the mitzvot, so that (as our Sages say concerning the ignorant in general) even his deliberate transgressions are regarded as inadvertent acts, since he is unaware of the gravity of sin; nor is he on intimate terms with him; — not only is one not enjoined to hate him: on the contrary, he must in fact, strive to become closer to him, as the Alter Rebbe states shortly.

To hate such a sinner is surely unjustifiable, since no sin that he commits is considered deliberate. There is also no reason to keep one’s distance from him out of fear that he will learn from his evil ways (in fulfillment of the exhortation of the Mishnah, “Do not fraternize with a wicked man”), since he is not on close personal terms with him in any case.

הנה על זה אמר הלל הזקן: הוי מתלמידיו של אהרן, אוהב שלום וכו׳, אוהב את הבריות ומקרבן לתורה

Therefore, on the contrary: Of this situation Hillel said, 12 “Be one of the disciples of Aharon, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving creatures and drawing them near to the Torah.”

לומר שאף הרחוקים מתורת ה׳ ועבודתו, ולכן נקראים בשם בריות בעלמא, צריך למשכן בחבלי עבותות אהבה

This usage of the term “creatures” in reference to human beings means that even those who are far from G‑d’s Torah and His service, for which reason they are classified simply as “creatures“ — indicating that the fact that they are G‑d’s creations is their sole virtue — even those one must attract with strong cords of love.

וכולי האי ואולי יוכל לקרבן לתורה ועבודת ה׳

Perhaps thereby one will be able, after all, to draw them close to the Torah and the service of G‑d.

והן לא, לא הפסיד שכר מצות אהבת ריעים

And even if one fails in this, he has not forfeited the merit of the mitzvah of neighborly love which he has fulfilled by his efforts in this direction.

וגם המקורבים אליו, והוכיחם ולא שבו מעונותיהם, שמצוה לשנאותם, מצוה לאהבם גם כן

Furthermore, even those whom one is enjoined to hate — for they are close to him, and he has rebuked them but they still have not repented of their sins — one is obliged to love them too.

Last edited by Temilia on Sun, Aug 17 2014, 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

mdoif

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 3:29 pm

Mommy3.5 wrote:

Do you love Levi Aaron?

If not, why? Is it because you appreciate the heinous nature of his crime? If so, when you love a Yid who marries out, does that mean you don't really believe that to be a heinous crime?

Contrary to the way I've been portrayed here, my beliefs aren't at all radical, but classic Jewish thought in all the generations.

Please examine your motives carefully whether they indeed stem from the deep understanding of the greatness of a Yiddish neshama, or perhaps from modern-day liberalism.

itssimplyme

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 4:10 pm

If G-d hates someone who intermarried, then he surely hates others too, for example those who married Jewish but who's behaviour is awful, who eat non kosher, don't keep shabbat, and so forth. Or the charedi man who stole from and conned my grandmother.
Your logic is seriously flawed. First of all, G-d does not HATE anyone, at least not out of spite, which is what seems to be suggested here. G-d is above any negative emotion. And if He does hate any THING, it's that, not the person. For example, G-d hates adultery, and hates how it corrupts that soul.
Why are you picking on intermarriage specifically? A woman who intermarries has Jewish children, unlike a man. (Although in the Torah Jewishness comes from the father actually and it was changed by the rabbis only). Someone who intermarries can still be
A good, decent person. They can even (shock horror) still have a relationship with Hashem and find importance in Judaism.
Not condoning intermarriage, just saying.
Not all those who marry Jewish are nice people. Those who intermarry might be nicer people..
Torah is about how we treat our fellow human being as well as G-d.
Do you know how much G-d loves a person? How? How do you know how cherished a person is in G-d's eyes, or how wonderful they are and can be?
I know what G-d doesn't like - judging others or thinking lowly of any of His children. Those who play G-d.
What He loves - humility, and the love and respect with which we treat others.
Love others, and G-d will treat you lovingly.