Intermarriage | Imamother

Mommy3.5

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 8:15 pm

Mdoif, your arguement is ridiculous. Murder does not equal intermarriage. especially when those who intermarry simply dont understand what they are doing. Many are tinok shnishbot.

Secondly, no I don't hate Levi Aaron. I dont know the man well enought to hate. I certainly hate the act. Do I think he is a good person? absoulutely not. Do I think frum molesters are good people simply cause they learn alot and keep shabbat? no. Evil is not black and white.

Intermarriage is a sad event, but, its not always a loss. many times the act of intermarriage brings people closer to torah, because they realize if they want to keep a jewish spark, they grab tighter to things they first thought were silly.

The children of a jewish mother are still Jewish, and can return, but that does not happen through hate. Why do think Lubavichers preach one small mitzvah? because even the light of one mitzvah from someone non observant makes hashem happy.

Why do we speak of the pintele yid? because its there and if nurtured, it often ignites. Your die hard line does not igite anything, it puts out the light. I am not a "liberal" person, by politics or any ways, but I do know you catch more flies with honey then vinegar. Your black and white outlook is so inappropriate for a nation that is losing kidsby the thousands eacch year. As someone who might have been considered an OTDyouth, and whose brothers have been. People like you made me hate frum people. people who accepted us unconditionally when we were in a bad place, where the only thing that made me decide I wanted a frum family.

Teachers who spoke like you , made me ill. I ignored them because clearly they didnt get how hard it was for me. in 2014 with so much out there to grab at our children, fire and brimstone does not work. talk to anyone who works with OTD kids and kiruv. Love is the only answer to the crisis. People like you are the problem.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 8:21 pm

OP, maybe. Without beating yourself.

What you said wasn't wrong in isolation, but in context it wasn't wildly useful. See if you can help that issue in some way.

If you want to do an act of teshuva on top of mental regret, see if you can make a shidduch between to Jews. Put your actions where your mouth was, so to speak.
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My big four for a single to marry, meaning I guess a non-frum Jewish female single, are: no Pill, no denim, no rings, and no leftism. That should get her engaged in six months. If she isn't married by month seven, she needs makeup, pearls, and scent, but only on top of the big four. The big four come first.

Getting the frum married is outside my knowledge. They know better already.
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Maybe start a shidduch circle, where ladies meet and swap redts.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, Aug 17 2014, 11:40 pm; edited 3 times in total

gittelchana

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 8:24 pm

mdoif wrote:

Seeing as I quoted you two pesukim in tehilim, do you mind extending me the same courtesy and quoting at least one single verse in Tanya where he writes we must love even mumrim.

Quoting Psukim is easy and doesn't mean anything. Psukim have so many layers of meaning. Maybe quote some of the Mefarshim who explain what these Psukim mean and you'll have more credibility.

Better yet, quote Poskim instead of Psukim so we know it's Halacha.

The end of Tanya chapter 32 actually quotes some sample Psukim of that nature and references the Talmud, Shabbos chapter 16. You're welcome to learn that chapter of Tanya and you'll find an explanation to your question.

I'm not sure what you mean with the word Mumar. Someone who likes the taste of not kosher food and eats it, is called a Mumar Litei'avon for that specific Mitzva. There are many levels in Mumar. Maybe you mean the term Min or Apikores or something of that nature. You'd be hard pressed to find one in todays day and age.

And yes, even those whom Halacha says to hate, you still need to love!

Halacha says that if someone who is "with you" in observance and knowledge of Torah and Mitzvos, whom you see doing an Avaira, whom you tried to prevent from doing said Avaira but did it anyway, yes, you are instructed to hate that person. However, you still have a Mitzva to love them Kamocha, just like yourself! You hate the bad and love the good. And if you truly love the good, the Neshama, the part of Hashem that's within them, you will be able to diminish the hate aspect too.

For the rest, you'll have to learn it yourself.

gittelchana

Sun, Aug 17 2014, 8:31 pm

mdoif wrote:

Do you love Levi Aaron?

If not, why? Is it because you appreciate the heinous nature of his crime? If so, when you love a Yid who marries out, does that mean you don't really believe that to be a heinous crime?

Contrary to the way I've been portrayed here, my beliefs aren't at all radical, but classic Jewish thought in all the generations.

Please examine your motives carefully whether they indeed stem from the deep understanding of the greatness of a Yiddish neshama, or perhaps from modern-day liberalism.

The Alter Rebbe preceded modern liberalism by at least 150 years.

DrMom

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 5:13 am

mdoif,
Not sure why I bother corresponding with you, but here goes:

The avg intermarrying Jew has no idea how serious a transgression marrying out is; he is truly a tinok shnishbot. He thinks marrying a Jew is something his parents want (maybe, if they care at all) in order to "preserve Jewish tradition/heritage," kind of the way that Greeks want their children to marry Greeks, or a Chinese parent may want their child to marry another Chinese person, etc. To preserve language, culture, heritage.

The entire concept of obeying mitzvot because HaShem said so and we have an everlasting covenant with Him which is binding throughout the generations, etc etc is a totally foreign concept. Maybe they heard of the idea, but they do not think it applies to them, not really. "Hey, *I* never agreed to any such deal!"

And when their parents raise them and say things like "we're happy if you're happy," and "your happiness is what is most important to us," then if "Christine" makes their son happy (or Christopher makes their daughter happy), they're happy. So they get the message that personally happiness is more important that HaShem.

Is this a liberal message trumping a religious one? Yes, absolutely. Is that a good situation? Absolutely not.

But you cannot take a 20-something-year-old stranger, and inform him with a quick remark on an internet message board that the entire value system with which he was reared is invalid, and expect him to be so receptive to your relevation that he will cancel his wedding and pursue a Jewish partner, and become shomer mitzvot.

Do you want to be "right" or do you want to be "smart?" Do you want to prove to this stranger that intermarriage is wrong or do you want him to eventually turn his life around, even a little bit? Do you want to be "right" or do you want to increase the number of mitzvoth performed in this world?

It's a tightrope walk to be open and warm to an individual without appearing to validate his choices, but I think there must be a way to do it.

mdoif

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 5:29 am

I'm not saying you if someone was reared by non-observant Jews you shouldn't teach them patiently, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with saying intermarriage is totally unacceptable. That is the truth, and truth shall alway prevail.

If the choices are between appearing to sanction aveiros or losing the chance to be mekarev someone, we must choose the latter. This is because if we sanction an aveira that is our personal sin, and first and foremost we have to avoid sinning ourselves. Only after we sure doing kiruv won't cause us to sin, are we allowed to be mekarev (fit your own oxygen mask before helping others).

BTW telling a sinner, or even just giving them the impression, that what they did is acceptable is called chanufa (חנופה), a day this is one of the reasons the BHMK was destroyed (yes, not just 'sinas chinam').

OP,

Are you seriously asking whether you need to do tshuva??? Really??? For telling someone intermarriage is unacceptable???

Do tshuva for your aveiros, not for your mitzvos!

FranticFrummie

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 6:26 am

One thing that I think every one of us needs to constantly keep in mind, is that we hate the SIN, not the sinner.

A good friend of mine had a FFB daughter who got engaged to a non Jew. My friend was devastated, and consulted many charedi rabbis trying to figure out what to do. Her daughter was as stubborn as a mule and wouldn't listen to anyone, so the wedding went on. My friend ended up going, but she wore all black, and stood in the very last row. She did not attend the party afterward, as she saw nothing to celebrate - BUT, at least she showed up.

Two years later the guy cheated on the girl and dumped her, and the girl went crying home to mother. My friend held her and comforted her, and did NOT say "I told you so", no matter how much she wanted to.

A few years after that, this same girl married another non Jew. My friend wore the same black dress, and stood in the very back row. Again, didn't show approval, but at least showed up.

Mother and daughter kept the lines of communication open the whole time, no matter how hard it was. When the girl had her first child, a boy, she called her mom and wanted to arrange for a bris. She wanted it "Orthodox style, with everything done right". The father of the baby was dead set against anyone "maiming his son", but the girl insisted to the point where she threatened to divorce him if he didn't cooperate!

Now the girl is keeping a kosher home, raising a beautiful Jewish boy, and only time will tell if the husband will come along or not.

I think this is a perfect example of how we can hold onto our principles, without losing people we love in the process.

animeme

Mon, Aug 18 2014, 8:32 am

Quote:

but at least showed up

I am very bothered by this. It implies that not going to this intermarriage would show lack of caring or even hate for the person intermarrying. That may be the case but more often is not. You can have a relationship with a sibling or child who intermarries even without going to the wedding. While your friend holds that going in the way she did shows no approval, many hold that just showing up and watching without protest shows approval, and since a protest in that context is not useful, we don't go.

I'm not saying your friend was wrong to go, but that those who don't go aren't saying they don't care. Whether or not to attend and how one does so is a complicated halachik issue, and lack of attendance of the event of the confirmation of an aveirah and that celebrates an aveirah does not determine or indicate whether you care about and will continue to love and be in the life of that person.