Which would upset you more- child off derech or ser. illness

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Which of the two would be more painful?

A child off the derech

22%

[ 11 ]

A child who gets seriously ill

77%

[ 37 ]

Total Votes : 48

amother

Wed, May 09 2007, 2:34 pm

Its a shame that only with serious illness there should be support out there.....there should be more understanding and support for those who suffer with kids off the derech and DIVORCEES!!!!

downsyndrome

Wed, May 09 2007, 3:41 pm

Both are the source of endless pain and grief, but for the family of a child off the derech there is the additional burden of guilt.
I can tell you - my sister has a son off the derech. It's been many years already and there is no sign of return yet. There is daily struggle, anguish, guilt and upheaval, in addition to the constant tzoros that this child/adult is causing all the time. Our family has been through a lot - cancer, death, divorce. illness, infertility, etc. but we all look at my sister's situation as a real tragedy that transcends all (almost!). Crying

LubavitchLeah

Wed, May 09 2007, 4:08 pm

I think that even entertaining such negative thoughts, thinking about these Tragic options, is dangerous. Our thoughts lead to creations in this world and others, we manifest what we think, lets not even open up this can of worms.

BrachaVHatzlocha

Wed, May 09 2007, 4:13 pm

Although I can not answer the question, I want to post a story I heard on a tape by Rabbi Shimshon Pincos, about Tisha B'Av.
He was talking about the kinos how there's a pile of tefillin but no heads...he was saying these days - there are heads, but no tefillin....which is worse??

He told a story of a man who had an only child who was shteiging in yeshiva. The boy got sick and died and they were very nervous to tell his elderly father, as it may give him a heart attack.
So they came to the father and they said..we're sorry to say, but your son isn't properly keeping the mitzvos...
The man was very sad. And Shabbos? he asked.
No, he's not keeping Shabbos, the people from the yeshiva told him.
Oy! I wish he would die! the elderly father exclaimed. (as better he should die pure without averos, I guess)
He did! said the rabbis.
Boruch Hashem! exclaimed the father.

Then once he had accepted that his son was no longer with us, they told him how he died pure.

Just somethign to think about.
It's very hard to watch a child/person off the derech.
But also to watch someone sick.
May we never know of either.

GAMZu

Wed, May 09 2007, 6:51 pm

<<What>>

Um, as far as I know, they gave their children over to non jews in order to save their lives. Put them in convents, etc. They did not sacrifice their kids, and it is nobody's choice how another person should die. Even parents shouldn't make a decision for their kids that they should die rather than live and have a chance to grow up as Christians.

The stories about people who chose to die rather than sin, or said it's better their son was dead than not keeping mitzvos properly, those are all very big people and know more about themselves and their children: what they are capable of, what is better for them on their great level.

And as for the support- it doesn't minimize the suffering of the child if the parents have support from bikur cholim and the community. It will not save the child's life if the illness is fatal.

I think a life threatening illness is much worse. Also think about the other kids in the family. The parents won't have a second for them, and then THEY have a chance to go off the derech from lack of proper parenting and family. And if the sick child does die, the chance for some family members to go off is that much greater.

GAMZu

Wed, May 09 2007, 6:57 pm

OK, this is weird. I am trying to quote shalhevet at the top of my post, but no matter what I do, it stops after the first word. I tried editing 2 times, but it's not going. So here is the quote:

<<What>>

GAMZu

Wed, May 09 2007, 6:59 pm

So strange!!!
IT happened again. I'll write it out myself instead of pasting.

Shalhevet said that in the holocaust mothers would rather their kids die that be raised by non jews.

redhot

Wed, May 09 2007, 7:09 pm

this threat made me sick. I cant understand some people at all.

Life is so precious. Every moment you are alive you have the chance to do teshuva. Who could ever choose the serious illness (which I understood to mean terminal.)??

I am sick from just thinking of thse two horrible choices.

yoyosma

Wed, May 09 2007, 7:13 pm

I dont understand the point of this poll. Why would one bring up such terrible topics? When you speak about things, you give them life and "Mamashus". Why would OP want to do that? Especially if its hypothetical!

bashinda

Wed, May 09 2007, 7:33 pm

I guess if you go with shalhevet's way of thinking, which I do, there's only one choice. not that I like either choice. One of my babies was in the hospital for weeks. I don't like hospitals. (B"H he's thriving but we still don't know what he has, Banging head

) so I don't say that lightly.

but as someone else said we should not know from such tsorus and Hashem should give serious nechama to those who have.

TzenaRena

Wed, May 09 2007, 7:43 pm

Quote:

Even parents shouldn't make a decision for their kids that they should die rather than live and have a chance to grow up as Christians.

That sounds like Chana should have allowed her seven sons to live and grow up as Christians if they chose to shock

This isn't consistent with Halacha. It is a real issur to deny one's Jewishness, or belief in Hashem. One is required to give up one's life al kiddush hashem for this, In the times of gezeiros lo aleinu, this is especially so, and Jews did this throughout the ages. Crying

we cannot judge those who couldn't withstand the pressure, but also cannot say that is was permissible to identify oneself as non-Jewish.

During WWII officials wrote the word "Orthodox" on the Rebbe's identity papers, as his religion. This could have offered protection, since there are several "Orthodox" religions (Greek Orthodox, Russian orthodox etc.) However, as soon as the Rebbe noticed it, he immediately had it corrected to state that he is Jewish. This in Nazi occupied France, and it placed the Rebbe in imminent danger!

bashinda

Wed, May 09 2007, 7:46 pm

TR: you always have these amazing stories!

mimivan

Wed, May 09 2007, 8:21 pm

bashinda wrote:

) so I don't say that lightly.

but as someone else said we should not know from such tsorus and Hashem should give serious nechama to those who have.

May your son have an immediate and complete refuah!

bashinda

Wed, May 09 2007, 8:43 pm

Amen! He really is thriving and you would not know he has anything but he gets to take his yummy medecine and we still don't know what the deal is. I'm davening he grows out of it.

GAMZu

Wed, May 09 2007, 8:44 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

Even parents shouldn't make a decision for their kids that they should die rather than live and have a chance to grow up as Christians.

That sounds like Chana should have allowed her seven sons to live and grow up as Christians if they chose to shock

First of all, I said CHANCE. In Chana's case, there was someone specifically forcing them to do one of the 3 cardinal sins! What I meant was a chance. Like if they send to a convent where the nuns promise to remind the children of their Jewishness, although they all knew it was a lie.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, Chana didn't force her sons to choose death. She watched as they all refused to bow down on their own volition.

Mommy3.5

Wed, May 09 2007, 10:26 pm

amother wrote:

OP here.
The reason I wonder about it is when one is faced with either situation, people console the suffering parent, with describing the other scenario, saying it could be the other, which is worse.

Really? I know many "off the derech" or teens at risk parents, I think if anyone said to them "it could be worse, he/she could have cancer." they would be supremely hurt.

And If some one ever said, "I'm so sorry your son/daughter is so sick,but, be relieved theyare not off the derech, that would be worse " . That would be inappropriate AND insensitive.

Amother, since you are anonomys, I don't feel bad saying, that this is the dumbest question I have ever heard! And if you have ever heard anyone saying it could be worse, the kid could be OTD, or deathly ill. then they are obviously to dumb to open thier mouths and should be struck Mute the next time they open thier mouth.

shanie5

Wed, May 09 2007, 11:24 pm

when I had my stillbirth, one lady said to me "maybe its better, the baby could have had major problems" that is no comfort at all. neither is saying "it could be worse, your child could besick/go off the derech." I cannot and will not attempt to even think of making this kind of choice. l

Ima'la

Thu, May 10 2007, 12:50 am

shanie5 wrote:

Honestly, I don't really like this thread...but on an intellectual note (since this is in the intellectual section, after all) maybe whatever a person doesn't have is what would be worse for them - since Hashem gives us only what we can handle and what is best for us - even if it doesn't seem/feel like it at all!

bashinda, refua shelaima to your son!

green - Question

Refuas hanefesh urefuas haguf to whoever needs it!

TzenaRena

Thu, May 10 2007, 2:18 am

GAMZu wrote:

In RamBam Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah, Ch. 5

Halacha 2: In the case of the three cardinal transgressions, Avodah Zora, immorality, and bloodshed, one should allow himself to be killed, and not transgress, but all other mitzvos, one should transgress and not be killed. (there is debate among the Rishonim whether this means he has to or is allowed to, and many are of the opinion that if he did give up his life, it is considered meritorious)

Which case are we referring to? When the Gentile is intending his own pleasure, such as : he forces him to build his house on Shabbos, or to cook his food for him, etc. ; however, if his intention was solely to cause him to violate the mitzvos, if there is not present ten Jews, he should transgress and not be killed; and if there are ten of Israel present -- he shall be killed and not transgress, and even if he only intended to make him violate any individual mitzvah out of all the other mitzvos.
(that is, not one of the three cardinal aveiros, but any one of the 613).

Halacha 3: All the above is not during the time of shmad (persecutions and anti-religious decrees); But in a time of shmad, which is: When a wicked king like Nebuchadnezar and his asocciates arise and enact decrees upon the Jews to negate their religion or any of the mitzvos - he should be killed and not transgress on even one of the rest of the mitzvos, whether he is coerced amidst ten of Israel, or coerced between himself and the Gentiles.
[/b]

shalhevet

Thu, May 10 2007, 2:42 am

GAMZu wrote:

Gamzu, that is just not true. Throughout history there have been thousands, maybe millions, of "simple" Jews who have been willing to die 'al kiddush Hashem' or let their children die, rather than sin.

Why shouldn't parents make that decision? A parent has to decide what is best for their child, until a child is old enough to decide for himself.

גדול המחטיאו יותר מההרגו
A person who causes someone to sin is worse than someone who kills them.

In the Holocaust it wasn't so simple halachically, because no-one knew for sure what would happen to those children in the end. Maybe they would be saved (as some were) and brought up as a Jew in the end. But if someone knew for sure that their child would be brought up as a non-Jew it is better for them to die. The choice is to die in purity, al kiddush Hashem, or to suffer for eternity in the next world. What is the point of a life like that? I read that there was an opportunity for Rav Elchonon Wasserman's hy"d grandchild to be hidden by non-Jews and he (or the child's parents, I can't remember) were horrified and prefered that he/she would die as a Jew (which s/he did, hy"d).

One of the most moving stories I have ever heard is that of the family (with the long Dutch name which I've forgotten) where the parents and four of their 8 children were killed in the Sbarro terrorist attack. After the explosion the 4 year old shouted "Immale" and his father said, "Let's say Shema Yisroel together". And they did. Hashem yikom damam. That father knew how to do the best for his child, even in their last moments. Who can imagine what place they have in Olam Haba?

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