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Mean Kids
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 6:05 am
I don't understand why kids are so MEAN! They seem to be meaner at younger ages than I remember when I was a kid, too.

We work so hard to give our kids the very best middos. We have our Holy Torah to guide us. We don't let them get away with it, so why are so many of us failing? Bullying seems to be at an all time high, and I just don't understand it.

DD had horrible experiences in both of the Jewish schools she tried, and public school was better for her. It breaks my heart to hear her say that the non Jewish kids were generally much nicer to her than the Jewish kids, and that even the mean ones weren't quite as mean as the Jewish ones. What a chillul Hashem!

What's worse, she says that from the non Jewish kids, she can sort of blow it off, but when it comes from another Jewish kid, somehow it hurts more. Crying The most vicious kids (both boys and girls) seem to come from the richest and most prominent families (there's your fancy yichus for you), so you can't even say that it's because they're disadvantaged.

Now, DD can be bossy and controlling sometimes, and she has a competitive streak, but she's not really ever downright nasty on purpose. I don't know what to tell her, because I just don't know.

Anyone else feel the same way, or have any insight?
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imokay




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 8:07 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I don't understand why kids are so MEAN! They seem to be meaner at younger ages than I remember when I was a kid, too.

We work so hard to give our kids the very best middos. We have our Holy Torah to guide us. We don't let them get away with it, so why are so many of us failing? Bullying seems to be at an all time high, and I just don't understand it.

DD had horrible experiences in both of the Jewish schools she tried, and public school was better for her. It breaks my heart to hear her say that the non Jewish kids were generally much nicer to her than the Jewish kids, and that even the mean ones weren't quite as mean as the Jewish ones. What a chillul Hashem!

What's worse, she says that from the non Jewish kids, she can sort of blow it off, but when it comes from another Jewish kid, somehow it hurts more. Crying The most vicious kids (both boys and girls) seem to come from the richest and most prominent families (there's your fancy yichus for you), so you can't even say that it's because they're disadvantaged.

Now, DD can be bossy and controlling sometimes, and she has a competitive streak, but she's not really ever downright nasty on purpose. I don't know what to tell her, because I just don't know.

Anyone else feel the same way, or have any insight?


In this week's mishpacha family first, in words unspoken, there is a letter to a bullied child's parent from a bully's mother..... Basically saying she is in pain too, she is also a mother, she is working hard with her child, and the child didn't witness his bullying behavior at home.

It was interesting to read the article right after reading your post....

I agree with your sentiments that kids can be exceptionally cruel.... I am both astounded (at their level of meanness) and bewildered (how can a child inflict such pain on a peer, where is the compassion and empathy?).....

Is it the bully's nature despite a model upbringing, or is the child's environment to blame?
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 8:15 am
I agree with Rosemond's stance on how to treat your child if he bullies (= no pity, make him go and apologize and don't let anything pass).
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 12:40 pm
I think sometimes the yeshivas are too demanding on certain kids. Some kids need a less rigid schedule and shorter days. And when they're forced to behave for so long and learn so much, their behavior is affected. I know a family very well where the parents are the sweetest, gentlest parents....the kids. whoa. We're pretty close, I don't think I'm missing something. But I think these kids ideally need a different type of environment for school.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 1:21 pm
Kids were pretty mean when I was a kid growing up, don't know if it's worse today. I grew up in a non religious home, went to public school and reform Hebrew school 1-2 times a week. I never really fit into public school where there were few or none Jewish kids. And I hated the reform Jewish school. My Hebrew school classmates were mostly boys and so rude and disgusting, I had such a negative experience and was turned off to Judaism because of their behavior. It was college through Hillel and chabad I made Jewish friends and became observant and found a love for Judaism.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 1:27 pm
I find today kids are one level up to when I was growing up.... URGH! I would say, what I witnessed in PS I now see in community schools, etc. Blame lax parents and demissionary school teachers!!!
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 1:38 pm
Kids who are being victimized need to learn how to stand up for themselves! I agree that there is a meanness epidemic - I think in the world at large, thanks to things like social media, where you can bully people without ever seeing them. Of course it has affected us as well! But it is hard when it is coming from "our own".
I absolutely believe in teaching victims how to respond to bullies. And I absolutely believe schools don't intervene decisively enough. Public schools are ahead ofyeshivos in this -zero tolerance policies for bullying
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 2:29 pm
Depends where, depends where... I see Jewish schools at least TALKING of middos... "civic education" is long dead in the PS
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 3:24 pm
Ruchel wrote:
Depends where, depends where... I see Jewish schools at least TALKING of middos... "civic education" is long dead in the PS
and yet - middos education and actually treating the "nerdy" kid in ur class nicely don't seem to correlate!
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 3:38 pm
debsey wrote:
and yet - middos education and actually treating the "nerdy" kid in ur class nicely don't seem to correlate!


That's everywhere... still would rather be the nerd in a frum school, by far.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 3:46 pm
Ruchel wrote:
That's everywhere... still would rather be the nerd in a frum school, by far.
I agree with you! But I think yeshivos need to step up to the plate and create zero tolerance policies for bullying.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 4:19 pm
I fight for all schools to do this, and still get old school answer of "he must deal", "she must adapt", "they don't hit her", "it's life" Mad
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 5:10 pm
It's a problem. I think that there really needs to be more of an emphasis on bein Adam lachaveiro from parents and schools.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 6:17 pm
I agree with op. I spoke about this with a very big Rabbi at tora umesora. He agreed and said: "the fumed they are the meaner they are". But he said look when they grow up they become such nice people. Well... I'm not sure about that either. I don't know why but children in ps are nicer. Secular people are even as adults on general more friendly and good hearted.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 6:18 pm
amother wrote:
I agree with op. I spoke about this with a very big Rabbi at tora umesora. He agreed and said: "the fumed they are the meaner they are". But he said look when they grow up they become such nice people. Well... I'm not sure about that either. I don't know why but children in ps are nicer. Secular people are even as adults on general more friendly and good hearted.

"The frummer they are the meaner they are"
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Scrabble123




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 6:39 pm
debsey wrote:
I agree with you! But I think yeshivos need to step up to the plate and create zero tolerance policies for bullying.

Why does this comment have only 1 like?!?! I want to give it 1,000!
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SRS




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 7:08 pm
Has anyone ever wondered if concentrating on middos doesn't actually work that well? I think that you can do a lot of things within the environment without actually making middos a class. While in theory I like the idea of teaching middos, I tend to think that schools are trying to do too much and would be better off concentrating on the three R's.

Incidentally, here in US I believe that public schools are doing more and more in terms of addressing bullying and yet I've seen studies and commentaries that seem to indicate that the more schools do the worse the problem becomes.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 7:14 pm
amother wrote:
"The frummer they are the meaner they are"
I think that is an over-simplification. The more INSULAR they are, the more likely they are to punish even slight deviations from the "norm". I think snobbery and elitism comes initially from the good place of saying "this is us. We are not like them (being the secular world) and in small doses, that's OK. But then it breeds an attitude of everything that's not "normal" by a community's standards is bad. And kids learn from adults - to be different is to be punished. So this emphasis on "normal" and "fitting in" can easily turn to bullying. UNLESS SCHOOLS TAKE A FIRM STAND and create zero tolerance policies.
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 7:58 pm
We like our kids to marry Well. That can mean various things: money, status, looks, brains, height, thinness, good neighborhood, interesting relatives, yichus, talent, and stuff and stuff and who knows what else.

In short, we are rather picky when we marry.

It is not amazing that sorting people occurs well before marrying age. We are very very aware of rank among people. This is what's behind cliques and bullying. Sorting people by rank.

That isn't necessarily all bad. We DO have Kohanin and Levim, who outrank the Israel, and we do enshrine and face the eternal human truth that some people deserve more respect and awe than others. Social life can't be an anarchic free-for-all.

Some people ARE better than others, in certain senses. Some must get deference Just Because. This has its origins in one's parents. Your parents get honor Just Because, even if they are much stupider and nastier than you are. For life. Forever. Within certain limits.

A high level kid, beautiful and smart, must be taught that she will be less beautiful and less smart if she throws her weight around. She can be demoted. She will not like that. She will feel the anger and the scorn. It hurts. From her parents. If she does not act properly as they define that.

She is going to pattern herself on her parents. If she overhears them denigrating people in unguarded private conversations, at home, she will absorb that through her skin like a cancer-causing chemical. Straight into the bloodstream.

Yes, it must come from the parents. Who must restrain themselves, and also know how to scare their children. Children who are never scared of their parents' anger are living lonely under the open sky, under the snow and rain.

Teach them that correct manners is what is expected, no matter how smart or cool they are. That coolness, while real, does not exempt you from proper behavior.

The phrase is "conduct unbecoming and officer and a gentlewoman".

A child who hears snotty remarks at home learns it is a dangerous world, and that snotty remarks confer safety.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 24 2014, 8:01 pm
so I've actually been wondering about this. There is a little boy who comes from a family of therapists- well respected in the community... and the last two times I saw him at the park he tried to pick on my dc who is the same age as him, preschool. The second time he called over his older brother to "join in the fun". Lets just say my dh and I weren't going to just stand by. Both times I went up to a parent and they right away went over to their son to tell him to stop it etc... but why is he acting like this ?!?! I'm with FF.
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