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-> Parenting our children
-> School age children
Bruria
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 Sun, Aug 24 2014, 8:29 pm
Well, in PS usually it's harder for teachers , principals and families to be acquainted with each other outside school, so I think they can be perhaps more fair when judging a bullying situation at school.
On the other hand, at a Jewish school, everyone knows each other and therefore they get scared to punish the daughter of a major donor to the school, or the teacher's niece, etc.
That does not justify anything of course, but I think that might be one of the reasons that your daughter feels like the non-jewish kids are nicer, because they know better and they are taught not to be mean and they know they will be punished if they bully someone.
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FranticFrummie
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 8:55 pm
| debsey wrote: | Kids who are being victimized need to learn how to stand up for themselves! I agree that there is a meanness epidemic - I think in the world at large, thanks to things like social media, where you can bully people without ever seeing them. Of course it has affected us as well! But it is hard when it is coming from "our own".
I absolutely believe in teaching victims how to respond to bullies. And I absolutely believe schools don't intervene decisively enough. Public schools are ahead ofyeshivos in this -zero tolerance policies for bullying |
I agree with you, but somehow it doesn't seem to be working. I taught DD to stand up for herself, to be confident and to not get too upset. When that didn't work and the bullies just kept coming after her, day after day, she finally snapped. She made a threat that earned her a 3 day out of school suspension. She would never hurt a fly, but she just wanted it to STOP.
Now she's regressed, because what she learned is that standing up for herself will just get her punished even more, while the bullies still get a free pass.
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Scrabble123
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:00 pm
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The zero tolerance for bullying policy should include working with the bullies as well IMO. You can't just go around expelling children right and left, for that would make you a bully!
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debsey
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:03 pm
| Scrabble123 wrote: | | The zero tolerance for bullying policy should include working with the bullies as well IMO. You can't just go around expelling children right and left, for that would make you a bully! | oh, for sure. Mandatory therapy and responsibility taking. Bullies are so good at blaming their victims, the policy would ENSURE that if you are aggressive, you need to work w a mental health professional no matter WHAT the excuse.
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granolamom
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:04 pm
ok, as the parent of a victim of bullying, can I just say that sometimes I think its harder to be the mother of the bully than of the victim?
you dont always know what causes this type of behavior, whether the child has been bullied himself, abused in any number of ways, has an emotional disorder or any other type of mental health issue. in our case, it turned out that the child was severely depressed and anxious, no one realized it at that age, the child was being treated for ADHD and the meds were worsening his anxiety. at that age, the anxiety was coming out as meanness (unfortunately directed at my kid). once it was recognized and the child was taken off his ADHD meds and put on zoloft, things changed. this child is now a teen and is actually good friends now with my child.
I know how heartwrenching it was for the parents and that they really did all that they could (which, btw, was far less than most people would think they should have done, but they are human and had limitations that I wont go into here). I'm not sure that the school would have done this child a service by expelling him. My child suffered for a year, thats true, but I think my kid suffered less than the bully would have long term had he been kicked out of the school. And in the end, my kid did grow from the experience,not that I would recommend it as a technique to encourage growth, but sometimes we cant always control the experiences that come our way.
but schools should not turn a blind eye to bullying, they need to work with the victim to keep him safe in school and work with the bully to help him so that he can behave well. its a tall order.
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debsey
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:08 pm
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Granola mom, by "zero tolerance" I meant "mandatory therapy" not "expulsion" was the kid in your example in treatment?
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Scrabble123
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:18 pm
| debsey wrote: | | oh, for sure. Mandatory therapy and responsibility taking. Bullies are so good at blaming their victims, the policy would ENSURE that if you are aggressive, you need to work w a mental health professional no matter WHAT the excuse. |
That would be a wonderful policy. Many bullies could themselves be suffering from abuse, bullying, or another condition. I wish the schools would implement such a policy with competent therapists.
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debsey
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:25 pm
| Scrabble123 wrote: | | That would be a wonderful policy. Many bullies could themselves be suffering from abuse, bullying, or another condition. I wish the schools would implement such a policy with competent therapists. |
I know whereof I speak. My son was bullied, and although the school was sympathetic, they did very little. When I spoke to the mom of the bully she was in total denial. There is no question in my mind that her kid needs serious help. He was vicious to my son (who is special needs and not capable of defending himself) if the school would have a policy - u bully - u go to therapy, maybe the therapist would burst her denial. I dealt with it another way - but I actually feel bad for her - her little Mr. Perfect is going to give her major tzaros one day. The bullying should have been her wakeup call!
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amother
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:33 pm
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debsey- I'm curious- how did you handle it? If my child was special needs and bullied I think my husband would have REALLY flipped-wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the other side, and that might not be the best answer.
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debsey
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:36 pm
| amother wrote: | | debsey- I'm curious- how did you handle it? If my child was special needs and bullied I think my husband would have REALLY flipped-wouldn't want to be in the shoes of the other side, and that might not be the best answer. | since he is in a self-contained class, and it is hosted in different schools each year, I advocated STRONGLY to move it to a different school. I did give that mom a piece of my mind (she can use it, she's so empty headed!) which accomplished exactly nothing.....
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FranticFrummie
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:52 pm
| Scrabble123 wrote: | | That would be a wonderful policy. Many bullies could themselves be suffering from abuse, bullying, or another condition. I wish the schools would implement such a policy with competent therapists. |
I SO agree with this, but schools don't have the funding for this. Parents don't always have insurance, or work full time, etc. It's much easier to say than to implement.
I can't make excuses for the bullies in DD's Jewish schools, but in public school at least we could figure out the problems. I asked DD why she thought each bully was such an unhappy kid. She told me that one kid had a mom in jail for writing bad checks, didn't know his dad, and was being raised by elderly grandparents. That would make any kid lash out! We talked about having compassion for people, and how that doesn't excuse bad behavior, but at least makes it more understandable. When she could see the root of the problem, it made her less likely to rise to the bait. Sometimes she would even try to be a little extra nice to the bully, and it softened them towards her.
On the other hand, another bully was mean because she was a spoiled, entitled brat, and didn't' care what anyone thought. Being nice to her only escalated things, because the bully thought it was a great game to draw DD in and then stab her in the back.
This only works when your kid is aware enough to figure things out, but when your child is in preschool up to around grade 2, they just don't understand it at all.
The only thing I could do was to chaperone all the field trips, and occasionally shadow DD in class all day. This sent a message to the bullies that I was an involved parent, and that I knew their names and faces. If one of them got nasty, I'd give them the stink eye. I never had to say a word. If things started to get worse again, I'd spend another few days shadowing.
I understand that parents with small children, who work full time, or are disabled cannot do this. It's a real luxury to be able to take the time, and frankly I resent having to do the school's job to keep DD safe. My health is not so great, and every time I shadow I end up wiped out for days afterwards.
Here's something I've been wondering about. In Israel, do you find things as bad as they are in the US? We'll be sending DD to a dati/torani school, and I'm hoping it will be more laid back and less image conscious than frum schools in the US. Being in an all girl's class will be good for her (because boys are icky!  ) and she'll have more kids to choose from for friends. In her last class there was a very high boy/girl ratio, and most of the girls were really mean. Most of the boys were completely out of control, and the female teacher didn't have a clue how to direct them, so they ran the class.
I've told DD that mean girls exist everywhere in the world, but hopefully not in such large numbers when we move. (A friend's daughter told me that charedi girl's schools are every bit as cliquish as US schools, if not more so. Not bashing, just saying what her experience was.)
*rambling, because I'm procrastinating the housework I should be doing right now. 
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debsey
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 10:56 pm
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Well, my sister sends to a school that did an amazing thing, and I'm pretty sure they paid w government funds. They had a bullying problem and they hired an expert (Dr. Tzipora Koslowitz) to come in. She gave a a 10 week parenting class to mothers of victims, she worked with the class - she did a whole series of lessons about friendship and how to respond to bullies, and I think she also treated the bully or worked with her. I don't know so much about how it all worked but my sister was very happy with the outcome. I don't have any elementary age girls but that's a school I'd send to!
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naturalmom5
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Sun, Aug 24 2014, 11:02 pm
All my husbands childhood non Jewish friends from ps tell him that in ps today , especially , upper middle class suburban schools there is a zero tolerance policy for bullies
In yeshivas after dress codes and tznius extremes and frum shtick , how much can you stress
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imasoftov
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Mon, Aug 25 2014, 4:37 am
| debsey wrote: | | Granola mom, by "zero tolerance" I meant "mandatory therapy" not "expulsion" was the kid in your example in treatment? |
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_tolerance
A zero tolerance policy imposes automatic punishment for infractions of a stated rule, with the intention of eliminating undesirable conduct. Zero-tolerance policies forbid persons in positions of authority from exercising discretion or changing punishments to fit the circumstances subjectively; they are required to impose a pre-determined punishment regardless of individual culpability, extenuating circumstances, or history. This pre-determined punishment need not be severe, but it is always meted out.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:33 am
| SRS wrote: |
Incidentally, here in US I believe that public schools are doing more and more in terms of addressing bullying and yet I've seen studies and commentaries that seem to indicate that the more schools do the worse the problem becomes. |
It can give ideas. Same reasons why some professionals oppose suicide prevention days.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:35 am
| Scrabble123 wrote: | | The zero tolerance for bullying policy should include working with the bullies as well IMO. You can't just go around expelling children right and left, for that would make you a bully! |
No. Defending a victim does NOT make you a bully. No.
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5*Mom
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Mon, Aug 25 2014, 7:22 am
| imasoftov wrote: | from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_tolerance
A zero tolerance policy imposes automatic punishment for infractions of a stated rule, with the intention of eliminating undesirable conduct. Zero-tolerance policies forbid persons in positions of authority from exercising discretion or changing punishments to fit the circumstances subjectively; they are required to impose a pre-determined punishment regardless of individual culpability, extenuating circumstances, or history. This pre-determined punishment need not be severe, but it is always meted out. |
And zero-tolerance policies in schools are not supported by the limited available data. This approach was not formulated based on any solid research or evidence, and the limited studies that have been done indicate that this makes the problems in schools worse, not better.
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debsey
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Mon, Aug 25 2014, 8:50 am
| 5*Mom wrote: | | And zero-tolerance policies in schools are not supported by the limited available data. This approach was not formulated based on any solid research or evidence, and the limited studies that have been done indicate that this makes the problems in schools worse, not better. | . In cases where the policy is regarding a punishment like expulsion. But since, as we have already said - in frum schools, the principal is likely to be the bully's neighbor, aunt or sister's mother-in-law - if you don't have a blanket policy in place - consequences will never HAPPEN. Mandatory therapy isn't draconian - it isn't expulsion - it is giving a kid who was involved in bullying a chance to deal w the underlying issue, and NOT allowing the parents to avoid it or wiggle out. Zero tolerance that leads to expulsion won't work for the simple reason that it won't HAPPEN.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Aug 25 2014, 8:52 am
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To a kid, maybe esp a bully, therapy is much more draconian than expulsion. It doesn't quite give off the image they want to give. Not that it's a bad idea!
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debsey
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Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:00 am
| Ruchel wrote: | | To a kid, maybe esp a bully, therapy is much more draconian than expulsion. It doesn't quite give off the image they want to give. Not that it's a bad idea! | right - but if there is NO wiggle room in the policy, no matter if the kid's parents just donated a wing or she's the granddaughter of the rosh yeshiva - she's in therapy for a while. If that"kills" the bully's power, well, I'm not crying about it!
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