Mean Kids | Imamother

Scrabble123

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:05 am

Ruchel wrote:

No. Defending a victim does NOT make you a bully. No.

Ruchel: My post was with a little humor, but yes, expelling children right and left because of one bullying incident would be considered bullying in my book. Oftentimes bullies are victims and victims bullies in another context, not to mention that there would be an issue defining exactly what is a "bullying" offense. It would be wrong to not investigate what is going on [in school, at home, behind closed doors, etc.]. Here zero-tolerance would have to be some sort of counseling and assistance with follow up and goals arranged by a competent professional.

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:14 am

debsey wrote:

Well, my sister sends to a school that did an amazing thing, and I'm pretty sure they paid w government funds. They had a bullying problem and they hired an expert (Dr. Tzipora Koslowitz) to come in. She gave a a 10 week parenting class to mothers of victims, she worked with the class - she did a whole series of lessons about friendship and how to respond to bullies, and I think she also treated the bully or worked with her. I don't know so much about how it all worked but my sister was very happy with the outcome. I don't have any elementary age girls but that's a school I'd send to!

My DD's class also had a bullying situation. The bully was moved to a different class (to remove her from her henchmen) and required to go to therapy. The school also brought in a therapist to train the teachers about how to deal with the situation, especially since there can often be copycat bullying even when the ringleader is removed. B"H the situation resolved.

It seems the girls' schools are more receptive to this than the boys?

Scrabble123

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:38 am

Chayalle wrote:

What a wonderful school! It's definitely importance for teachers to be educating about recognizing/handling bullying. I often wonder how it is that so many schools entrust a child's care to inexperienced teachers who do not know the first thing about chinuch and could say things to a child who forgot her paper such as "too bad." Anyways, that is for another discussion.

As for boys v. girls: I'm not sure I agree with you. I think that girls are more likely to bully, but in an entirely different way than boys. Boys are also more likely to keep quiet about it, and to just interpret fighting as "boyish" behaviors. I also think that a lot of children are not even aware what bullying is and how it is able to impact another student, which would explain why students may be receptive once they hear what's going on.

5*Mom

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 7:17 am

debsey wrote:

. In cases where the policy is regarding a punishment like expulsion. But since, as we have already said - in frum schools, the principal is likely to be the bully's neighbor, aunt or sister's mother-in-law - if you don't have a blanket policy in place - consequences will never HAPPEN. Mandatory therapy isn't draconian - it isn't expulsion - it is giving a kid who was involved in bullying a chance to deal w the underlying issue, and NOT allowing the parents to avoid it or wiggle out. Zero tolerance that leads to expulsion won't work for the simple reason that it won't HAPPEN.

Zero-tolerance means something very specific. That's clearly not what you mean, but using that term can confuse and dilute your message. I am all for both bully and victim receiving counseling, but it is also worth noting that most guidance counselors/therapists/psychologists/educators have a very poor understanding of the dynamics of bullying so the counselors would need some counseling first. Wink

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 8:01 am

amother wrote:

so I've actually been wondering about this. There is a little boy who comes from a family of therapists- well respected in the community... and the last two times I saw him at the park he tried to pick on my dc who is the same age as him, preschool. The second time he called over his older brother to "join in the fun". Lets just say my dh and I weren't going to just stand by. Both times I went up to a parent and they right away went over to their son to tell him to stop it etc... but why is he acting like this ?!?! I'm with FF.

I'm still reading through the thread but wanted to chime in on this if someone already hasn't: a child with two therapists as his parents is a recipe for disaster. Not sure if this is discussed in the frum world, but in the secular one it's pretty much a given.

(Note: I love therapists--my Mom is a therapist, and therapists have saved my life more times than I can count. But I have never, EVER, met the child of two therapists who didn't have major issues. While it shouldn't lead to bullying of any kind, the moment I read "family of therapists" I got a chill up my spine.

debsey

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 8:02 am

5*Mom wrote:

as far as I know - zero tolerance just means an automatic penalty applied no matter what. In this case, mandatory therapy no matter what. And I agree about school counselors. The only school whom I believe handled a bullying problem WELL hired an expert - Dr Koslowitz - and I think she worked w the whole school. I agree - do it right because doing it wrong is more disastrous than doing nothing at all.

zohar

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 8:33 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I agree with you, but somehow it doesn't seem to be working. I taught DD to stand up for herself, to be confident and to not get too upset. When that didn't work and the bullies just kept coming after her, day after day, she finally snapped. She made a threat that earned her a 3 day out of school suspension. She would never hurt a fly, but she just wanted it to STOP.

Now she's regressed, because what she learned is that standing up for herself will just get her punished even more, while the bullies still get a free pass.

This is why I would shy away from "no tolerance" policies. The bully's, particularly girls, can can easily outsmart them and actually use them against their victims. I don't like no tolerance policies in general because it doesn't allow for smart judgment calls on the part of our educators. They don't use their creativity to fix the problem. For example, a girl is getting bullied in class. Tells appropriate authorities. Bully gets suspended. This does nothing to help the victims social standing and likely worsens it. Maybe having seminars to teach our schools how to deal with bullying May help?

Barbara

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 8:41 am

Zero tolerance has been a disaster for public schools. Its resulted in kindergarten boys being suspended for pointing a chicken finger at another child and saying "bang," or for biting their pop tarts into the shape of a gun. In a high school student, who had an accident after a teacher refused to let her use the restroom, being suspended for saying "I could kill her." In first graders being expelled for z3xual harassment for innocent touching.

You also need a lot better definition of "bullying" than currently exists. What rises to that level? How often must it occur? Far too often, people refer to things that are at a level I would call "not nice" as bullying. Is it? I'd say not. But, given some people's definitions, I'd say that just about every kid on earth has bullied at some time or another.

A group of girls are at Suzy's house doing a project. They start teasing each other, saying semi-mean things, in jest. No, its not very nice, but everyone is participating, enjoying it and laughing. Linda is making comments and laughing with everyone else, and has provided every indication that she is OK with the game. So someone pokes back at Linda. She runs from the house, crying. Were the other girls bullies?

Eli got a brand new tricycle that he loves. He is riding it at the park. Steve wants a turn, but Eli isn't ready to give it up yet. Steve tries to push Eli off the tricycle. Eli, who is bigger, pushes back, and Steve falls, skinning his knee. Is Eli a bully?

Miri dislikes Chava. Chava asks to play jump rope with Miri and her friends at recess. Miri says no, then says that if Chava plays, she won't. Is Miri a bully?

At a particular school, the norm is that if you leave a bottle on a table, unattended, anyone can take it. Everyone does it. Joe leaves a bottle on the table, and Jimmy pours a cup of juice from it. Joe wasn't aware of the custom, and is upset. Is Jimmy a bully?

Michael put a piece of gum in Josh's hair. Is Michael a bully? Does it change your mind if every day, Josh told Michael that he's stupid and no one likes him? Is Josh a bully? What if it only happened once?

marina

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:52 am

I think I've talked about this before. The schools that are combating bullying effectively are the ones with extensive anti-bullying curricula and training, for staff, parents, and students. If you don't have that, chances are you will have a problem.

In Pittsburgh, the girls' school has an extensive anti-bullying prevention program and parents attest that it works phenomenally. Girls are given a talking to if they as much as roll their eyes at another student.

But professionally I agree with Barbara. Every unkind comment or gesture is now termed bullying and it results in a lot of drama and lawsuits.

debsey

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 11:01 am

Barbara wrote:

you are talking about the difference between covert and overt bullying. In many of the cases you described, intervening therapeutically would not be misplaced. In the example of miri - that is bullying. You can dislike another girl all you want, but u can't exclude her. Miri needs to learn how to talk to the girl she dislikes. I know that seemed to be one of the more innocuous examples, but that is bullying behavior.

Barbara

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 11:24 am

debsey wrote:

Why aren't children entitled to choose their own friends? Why do they need to play with everyone? Do you? Think of the most obnoxious person at your shul. When was the last time you invited her to lunch? Why are you excluding her? Maybe therapeutic intervention would be in order.

You're pathologizing normal childhood behavior. And in doing so, you are inhibiting children from learning how to deal with those situations. Its amazing that they often figure it out.

You're also working with half of the information. You see, Miri brought her jump rope to school because Chava only let the girls who were the best jumpers play, and Chava was excluded. So, instead of calling the school, Chava's mom told her to take a jump rope, and let the less skilled kids play. Miri told her she was a loser, and no one would ever play with her. A week later, everyone wanted to play with Chava. (True story, except it was a football, not a jump rope, and the kids let Chava play the next day.)

Bullying is pervasive. And its more than simply being mean to someone once, or even once in a while.

(And lest you think that I'm raising a bully, my kid once invited the two least popular kids in the grade, and the two uber-coolest kids in the grade, over to watch a movie the same night. Somehow, it worked.)

debsey

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 1:12 pm

Barbara - I went with the information presented. You said - miri excluded Chava because she dislikes her. That is not ok. Most bad middos are "normal" behavior. Given their druthers, kids would eat nothing but candy, stay up all night - cheat instead of study - we have to educate them BETTER than human nature. A few sessions with a therapist to learn interpersonal skills won't hurt anyone and can greatly help a few! I fail to see the downside (no disrespect intended to your children, who I am sure are being educated to be kind, decent human beings) As the mom of kids who span the spectrum from extremely popular to victim of bullying, I know whereof I speak. Even my extremely popular son did well learning about interpersonal skills for handling a difficult kid in his class.

Barbara

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 3:36 pm

debsey wrote:

Correct. You only heard part of the story, and, without bothering to ask more or look further into it, labeled a child as a "bully," and would have forced her to undergo therapy, which would have cost her parents several hundred dollars, even with insurance.

Fortunately, this is just online. Unfortunately, its what happens far too often in our schools and in our communities.

In any case, "bad middot" is not bullying. And conflating the two harms children. It harms children who are not given the opportunity to work out relatively minor issues because they're seen as "bullying," complete with parental and administrative intervention. While at the same time, it trivializes real bullying.

"I'm not letting you play today" is not the same as "you're stupid and ugly and can never play with us"

"OMG, I can't believe you're carrying a purse from Target," said once, is not the same as calling a child "Cheap Bag Girl" or some other nasty epithet every day.

Not that I'm condoning any of the first examples. But we need to know when to prompt our kids to do better, or to cope, and when to pull out the big guns. Because if we intervene with every hurtful comment or act, how will our children learn to cope with them when they inevitably arise when they are adults. Nb -- bullying is different, and requires intervention.

By the way, I disagree with your premise. I don't think that most kids, given their druthers, would only eat candy. They might eat more than you would like, but they would also eat healthful foods. Nor do I think that most would cheat. Some, yes. But others have an innate moral compass. And they would eventually sleep.

debsey

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 3:46 pm

Barbara - using my smartphone so I can't quote - couple points - if this was a professional situation, obviously a lot more questions would be asked! Also, I was envisioning the situation I described above - where the school automatically used government funding to intervene as soon as there was concern. They intervened with the entire class, not just the suspected bully. They worked with the moms, the kids, and the teachers. Sounds like Marina is describing something similar in Pittsburg.
What can I say? I disagree with you about human nature! Kids are not naturally nice. (this thread is entitled 'kids are mean' because they often ARE!) it is our job to intervene when we see that, not just say "oh well, it is human nature." we need to train our children to be better than human nature!

Barbara

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 4:22 pm

debsey wrote:

I am not aware of available government funds that would pay for the cost of that type of intervention. Entire public school districts are on "doomsday budgets." Two students died in Philadelphia alone last year because the schools did not have nurses. So it would be surprising to me if that kind of money were available for anti-bullying programs, but not for teachers and nurses. But sure, a taxpayer-supported anti-bullying program for every school in the United States, public, private or parochial? Sign me up.

That's not what you said, though. You referred to school-mandated counseling of anyone labeled a "bully," which is a very different thing.

And, again, not being nice is not the same as being a bully.

marina

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 5:31 pm

Barbara wrote:

Many states have enacted laws requiring anti bullying policies and designation of available funding for them.

We direct all our clients to implement, as soon as possible, comprehensive anti-bullying programs. Every day a school district does not have an anti-bullying program is a day the district risks losing a bullying lawsuit.