Where Do People Get Off Paskening for One Another?

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:55 am

I was at a meal recently at the X's house. Mr. X's niece was over. Somehow it came up that the niece was the daughter of a kohein and a divorcee (uncle X is also a kohein because he and the niece's father are brothers). She is interested in maybe becoming more religious, which is why she was at Shabbos dinner.

When Mr. and Mrs. X were out the room putting their kids to bed, another guest leaned over and "whispered" to the niece, "You know, you're a mamzer because your dad is a kohein and your mom is a divorcee." The guest's wife nodded, but I was shocked. In my shock, I exploded - not yelling - but said loudly to him, "You shouldn't say things like that, ever! She's not a mamzer, and you have no business paskening for other people." This man is not a rav, and even if he was there was no shayla asked. Also, he's WRONG - which shows how unknowledgeable he is. While Mr. X's niece probably couldn't marry a kohein (depending on whether or not her mom was actually "married" to the first husband), she's certainly not a mamzer. I told the niece that this other guest was incorrect and that she was definitely not a mamzer and not to worry about it. Plus, the girl isn't religious - why drive her off?

The other guest responded that their relationship was "giluy arayot," and I told him that it wasn't - and then he responded that he had a "duty" to tell this young woman that she was a mamzer... At which point she left the room in tears and I said it was getting late, went upstairs to thank Mrs. X, and left.

Since when is it okay to go around paskening for other people about delicate family issues? Is there some sort of a term for why this totally wrong, especially for people who don't know what they're talking about?

granolamom

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:03 am

amother wrote:

Since when is it okay to go around paskening for other people about delicate family issues? Is there some sort of a term for why this totally wrong, especially for people who don't know what they're talking about?

its not ok, and the term you are looking for is 'dont be a jerk'. unfortunately, those who arent, dont need you to tell them that and those who are never think it applies to them.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:15 am

He humiliated a fellow Jew in public? What?

Stumbling block before the blind?

Soiling the reputation of a virgin? (She isn't married. Her private life is private.)

Oh my.

I would use the word "sin" since you are asking for a word.

Perhaps if you are very, very creative and earnest, you can contact this savaged woman, who was SOMEBODY ELSE'S GUEST, and repair the damage.

I think this can be a chink in our armor. A vulnerable BT minded person encountering a rejection from what looks to her like someone further inside Judaism than she is, can be one of the best weapons of the Yetzer Ha Ra against the Jewish people. A very difficult thing to defend against.

Oh dear.

Maybe the man of the house, the host, could phone her and state in horrified tones that it had come to his attention that she had been disrespected at his table, that the insulter would never be invited back, that he was in tears at the stain on his house and table, and would she please forgive him. And come back next Shabbos for dinner. A few real tears would be in order, even from a man.

mille

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:26 am

That's really rude. And it's not even true. Children born of a kohen and divorcee (or another forbidden union with a kohen) aren't mamzerim. They are chalalim. As far as I know, NO ONE thinks they are mamzerim, not even a random minority opinion. They are in a special category of no longer being kohanim, they are yisrael for all halachic purposes, but the girls still cannot marry kohanim (but can obviously marry leviim or yisrael so clearly not mamzerim!).

It seems just hurtful to claim someone is a mamzer when they are not. Even if she can't marry a kohen, it's not the end of the world. Plenty of other non priestly fish in the sea...

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:35 am

Pretty sure. This was well into the meal and they didn't seem to know each other, and she was not from here and he has lived here his entire life.

This man is also someone who likes to insert himself into other people's business - and is always telling people what their rav's will say. "You'll never get a heter for this.." or "you're too chumradik, your rag would never allow it.." or "they're a terrible shidduch."

He's basically a male yenta.

imasinger

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:36 am

He was clearly at fault, but you may have handled things in a more hurtful way for the poor girl. When you blew up, Mr. Yenta got defensive, as people almost always do, and said much more, making a bad situation even worse.

A better response (and hindsight is 20-20, so I can't blame you for not seeing it in the heat of the moment) would have been to get her out of the room with you quickly and whisper, "Just ignore him. He has no idea what he is talking about; I'll explain later."

The conversation with her, and the conversation with him (probably best to focus on "are you her rav, to know when and how to convey sensitive information? You had better ask your own rav if you did right here.") are both best done in private.

My humble opinion is that if someone has reached adulthood without becoming aware that he has no business opening his mouth about such matters (even if he were right about her status, which he wasn't) your response isn't likely to change him. But as long as it's out of her earshot, it doesn't hurt, as he is unlikely to see her again.

Last edited by imasinger on Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:36 am

Scholars who study the Chofetz Chaim could perhaps furnish you with precise terminology condemning the grotesque misuse of statements that are factually true.

Of course, though, as Mille says, this wasn't even true.

But even if it had been absolutely true, there was no "duty to tell her". What he did was Lashon Ha Ra and could be analyzed from that angle. Speech can be true and still be evil. It is not saved by its factual accuracy.

And of course here it wasn't.

So I still have no proper phrase for "talking like a rabbi when you aren't one".

Or answering a question that has not been asked.

It would have been a little less horrible if she had asked "am I a mamzer?"

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:40 am

amother wrote:

Pretty sure. This was well into the meal and they didn't seem to know each other, and she was not from here and he has lived here his entire life.

This man is also someone who likes to insert himself into other people's business - and is always telling people what their rav's will say. "You'll never get a heter for this.." or "you're too chumradik, your rav would never allow it.." or "they're a terrible shidduch."

He's basically a male yenta.

Ouch. He does need to hear "how do you know?" and "but you don't know". "You can't really know that" endlessly.

I am amazed he has any friends or contacts at all. This really is wresting community leadership into his hands without a right to it.

I am having very unpleasant thoughts about Korach.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:44 am

Well the first time is the time when we were unprepared.

Next time OP will state quietly and very, very intensely to the woman, "we will talk about this later. What this gentleman is saying is not, not, not true."

And let him glare, if he overhears.

Then go back to the peas, in icy silence, saying nothing further.

It is so, so hard to defend ourselves against our internal sinners.

He may be mentally ill.

debsey

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 10:56 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Good advice! Well bred and effective

gittelchana

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 1:59 pm

amother wrote:

Not every forbidden s-xual relationship is giluy arayos... The guy obviously never learned plain chumash or he would know that the girl is a chalala, not a mamzeres.... She can't marry a Kohen, but that's about it.

No, it's not okay for people to Pasken like that.

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 7:41 pm

Although in this case the fellow sounds like a total idiot, sometimes it can be a chesed to gently tell someone something they don't know.

For example, my relative married someone whose first marriage was to a non Jew. She once said something about her daughter (whose father wasn't Jewish) possibly marrying my son one day, and I said, I am sorry to tell you that she can't marry a kohen. (I am not sure if there's more than one opinion on this, but it's worth keeping in mind).

out-of-towner

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 7:46 pm

amother wrote:

There is more than 1 opinion, but everyone must ask their Rav. It IS a Shayla!

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:44 pm

I am going to remark that one of the hosts must always be present at the table at all times.

Although with some people such as this offender, that may not completely prevent such problems.

It is somehow rather risky and almost a dereliction of duty to leave the guests to each other. They have all come understanding the host(s) would welcome and protect them. Leaving them to wolves may not be nice.

Of course ideally guests would be charming and civilized, and grown-ups in theory can protect themselves. However, I see a duty here to not leave the room. At least one should remain and supervise. It's owed, it seems to me, like a glass of water, to a guest.

So the host here was a little bit at fault here also.

I have no way of knowing what would have happened if the host had been present. But it seems rather neatly timed that this assault occurred when neither host was present.