Daughter turning 3 - long sleeves?

amother

Wed, May 09 2007, 6:49 pm

I am torn. My little girl is turning three just when the weather is starting to get really hot. I hadn't really given much thought to it, but now it hit me that she has to start being tsnius. I am okay with no more pants but is it an actual halacha to start covering your elbows from the age of three? Does anyone have the source for it?
Thanks

Mommy3.5

Wed, May 09 2007, 6:52 pm

no its not an actual halacha. it is a minhag, its for chinuch purposes. Each community has thier own standards, its up to you to decide what you feel is right.

amother

Wed, May 09 2007, 6:54 pm

I live in Lakewood and here the standard is up to four. At 3 and a half you stop pants, but short sleeves and skirts can go up until four. But you can do whatever you want.

Crayon210

Wed, May 09 2007, 6:57 pm

Mommy3.5 wrote:

no its not an actual halacha. it is a minhag, its for chinuch purposes. Each community has thier own standards, its up to you to decide what you feel is right.

It's up to you to decide what you feel is right? Since when?! Don't we ask shailos when we don't know the proper thing to do?

OP-if you are Lubavitch, here is a quote from a letter of the Rebbe, printed in Likutei Sichos, Volume 18, p. 448:

"According to the Shulchan Aruch when a girl reaches the age of three years and a day she should already conduct herself in a manner of tznius. Surely so this applies to a girl ten years and older...

"But not to be oppressive about this...and to speak in a pleasant manner."

If you're Chabad, it's pretty cut and dry, and you should dress your daughter in long sleeves from 3. If you're not, you should ask your rav for guidance.

bashinda

Wed, May 09 2007, 6:57 pm

My DD also has a summer birthday and just last year I was also torn. I spoke to somebody and I tried to also keep in mind that this is chinuch here. But I did stop the pants, and I tried to have elbows and knees covered pretty much. I found a lot of sleevless jumpers and bought inexpensive long sleeved cotton tees to go under them. She was fine.

My next thing is to get rid of pajamas with pants for nightgowns but I'm not sure when to make the switch. I guess I'll make it a slow transition. Sometimes pajama bottoms are more tsnius than nightgowns. What do other people do?

Edit: also I should add that my mashpia told me that what they get used to now they'll not even think about later as they're so used to it. In fact I only used tights on DD. Now she's training and she's in knee highs and I'm not so happy but she needs to get potty trained already! (that's a different subject though!)

Last edited by bashinda on Wed, May 09 2007, 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Wed, May 09 2007, 6:58 pm

[quote]But you can do whatever you want.

its up to you to decide what you feel is right.

Quote:

since when do you do what you want???

ask a rav you'll probably get different answers from everyon. som say til 3, 4, 5..

amother

Wed, May 09 2007, 7:36 pm

Quote:

If you're Chabad, it's pretty cut and dry, and you should dress your daughter in long sleeves from 3. If you're not, you should ask your rav for guidance.

depends which chabad rav you go to. the one I went to is very well known. he said to start with skirts and no more tank tops, make sure knees are covered (short skirt, short socks = ok) till around 6. so its not that cut and dry

all that aside, the tznius issue is usually harder for the mother than the kid. if you manage to be ok with putting long sleeves etc on your kid than she will probably be fine wtih it, especially if you make it exciting.

Crayon210

Wed, May 09 2007, 7:40 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

If you're Chabad, it's pretty cut and dry, and you should dress your daughter in long sleeves from 3. If you're not, you should ask your rav for guidance.

I would be most curious how this rav explained his opinion in light of the Rebbe's opinion on the subject.

If you could PM me or e-mail me (so you can remain anonymous) at crayon2100@yahoo.com, I'd really appreciate knowing who the rav is.

shalhevet

Wed, May 09 2007, 10:47 pm

It's all a matter of different opinions, so everyone should ask their LOR. The Chazon Ish held that you don't need to be makpid with a girl until about 9 years old. The MB holds earlier.
Our rav said: 3- no more pants (outside) and reasonably long sleeves, but they don't have to reach exactly to the elbow. If their legs are covered by socks or tights you don't have to be makpid about knees covered; if no tights then cover the knees.
6/7- to wear socks and sleeves should cover the elbows, and skirts, the knees.
You have to be more careful (ask your LOR from which age) if your dd's in shul/ where other people are davenning (not her father) b/c it's a problem about them davenning where they can see her.
11- has to be dressed fully tznius in front of her father too.

Wearing pyjamas is not assur for a woman either, but many are machmir. Our rav said there's no reason to be machmir until a girl is mamash bas mitzva.

Seraph

Wed, May 09 2007, 10:54 pm

As far as I learned- most people start at age three dressing a girl bitznius, but the mishna brura and igros moshe- if I'm remembering the sfarim correctly, say that age 5 or 6 you should for sure dress the girl bitznius- because by that age, a man isnt allowed to say brachos or daven if he sees her not bitznius...

mommy24

Thu, May 10 2007, 5:51 am

Quote:

so, from age three skirts long sleeves, and what about socks? has to be the long ones? or can they use sandals with bare foot?

I did not put my daughter in tights/knee socks only once she was 3 and when she started pre 1 A and she needed to wear tights it was a big to do. she would yell and scream, I explained that she needs to wear tights now that she is bigger . BH now it is not a big deal, although I think with other girls in her class it must be bec she constantly comes home with notes about wearing only tights to school. I think with another daughter I would definately start tights, or at least knee socks at the age of 3 and not push it off.

mumoo

Thu, May 10 2007, 10:10 pm

I dressed my girls in long sleeves, skirts and tights practically from when they were walking. we never had any transition issues.

The biggest problem is when the 3 year old took off her long sleeves, tights and skirt and went outside naked to ride her tricycle.

Or the time I opened the carpool door and found dd and her friend in the backseat, totally undressed-yet still buckled into their carseats. The mommy driver had no idea what they had done LOL