Daughter turning 3 - long sleeves?

Crayon210

Fri, May 11 2007, 12:18 pm

shalhevet wrote:

The Chazon Ish held that you don't need to be makpid with a girl until about 9 years old.

I thought the CI held from 6 or when she is considered a "young lady".

amother

Fri, May 11 2007, 7:27 pm

If our minhag is tzniyus from three, then four is not more correct than 6 or 8 years old. Why is it that we think that that age of 3 is negotiable. Yes, bobby socks are adorable as are tank tops but that isn't our life. Who are we to decide an age, when the age is specified for us as 3. What happened to us that we think everything is open to what we decide works for us?

Tefila

Fri, May 11 2007, 9:39 pm

I am also confused at the question amother, if you are lubavitch then we have guidelines set in place already and nothing more to ask. Unless someone has a medical condition. Long socks and tights are a different story but sleeves over the elbow are not I thought

chocolate moose

Sat, May 12 2007, 9:13 pm

yes, tefilah, but that doesn't mean everyone follows them....you have the 2 year olds in tights and you have, ahem, moms who uh . . . . . . . . let's just say they aren't strict with htemselves either. Sad

Crayon210

Sat, May 12 2007, 11:23 pm

There's nothing wrong with putting a two year old in tights.

There is something very wrong with a Lubavitch girl or woman who is above the age of three who doesn't follow the guidelines of tznius: sleeves, knees, legs, neck, etc. Unless there is a heter, though besides for an extreme medical condition, I can't think of what that heter would be. Someone please enlighten me.

Mrs.Norris

Sun, May 13 2007, 12:33 am

Crayon210 wrote:

There is something very wrong with a Lubavitch girl or woman who is above the age of three who doesn't follow the guidelines of tznius: sleeves, knees, legs, neck, etc.

'very wrong'? I think that's slightly too dramatic I would not (nor do I think anyone else is in the place to) criticise anyone Lubavitch who chas vachlilah decides her daughter should wear socks or short sleeves when she is still 3 ...

mumoo

Sun, May 13 2007, 2:26 am

Mrs. Norris wrote:

if Lubavitch minhag/halacha is long sleeves and tights, then it's either very wrong for a Lubavitch mother to dress her daughter in socks and short sleeves or very wrong to call herself Lubavitch

LubavitchLeah

Sun, May 13 2007, 2:43 am

Personaly I follow the 3 year rule and see the wisdom in it however I would not call someone "not Lubavitch" as amother posted here if they dont do this. We all have our areas that are harder to strive towards. example if amother is doing Chitas every day, Mivtzoim, eating the right Schita, pas, bishul, chalav etc etc, but her 3 year old is not dressed with pantyhouse, please lets not insult her connection to the Rebbe and tell her shes not Lubavitch. The Rebbe wrote many sichos that we should all strive to implement but many of us dont do everything he said, this is our gashmius nature which we all struggle with and constantly need to elevate, lets not label people who are not doing everything as "not Lubavitch" if they choose to identify themselves this way. Would the Rebbe want us to do that? Maybe he would but I dont think he wants us to isolate our fellow yidden, rather try to encourage them to take on more through kindness and warmth.

LubavitchLeah

Sun, May 13 2007, 2:47 am

On a more personal note I want to add that I believe its very crucial to dress a 3 year old girl Tznius as the Rebbe writes, do it with love and excitement so its something positive. If one keeps ones girl in pants and short sleeves etc etc, the transition is much harder later and it also creates a feeling of it not being so important from a young age. Girls start socialising early and 3 is an age that they definitly already feel "female", like their mommies.

bashinda

Sun, May 13 2007, 4:43 am

Tefila wrote:

Personally I was thinking very long about this about last year and spoke to my mashpia. I didn't find the guidelines to be all that clear. DH for one thought it meant that we should start educating but that educating is a long process and I shouldn't expect DD to be able to follow the same level of tsnius I do but that it should be education.

So I was very confused here.

and right now she's still toilet training so the teacher wants her to wear knee highs in school. So should I not call us Lubavitch, mumoo?

poelmamosh

Sun, May 13 2007, 9:44 am

Quote:

Mrs. Norris wrote:
'very wrong'? I think that's slightly too dramatic I would not (nor do I think anyone else is in the place to) criticise anyone Lubavitch who chas vachlilah decides her daughter should wear socks or short sleeves when she is still 3 ...

if Lubavitch minhag/halacha is long sleeves and tights, then it's either very wrong for a Lubavitch mother to dress her daughter in socks and short sleeves or very wrong to call herself Lubavitch

Tights, lubavitch minhag? I dunno. I DO do it for a variety of reasons (a very active, unladylike 3 yr old dd, avoiding too many choices for her etc) but I can sympathize with parents that do knee socks in summer - and assure that the skirts are long enough (even though with preschoolers, something is bound to show sometime...) and the child is getting the right "message" about tznius in general (ie that its not something only done when convenient, comfortable or to the least possible degree...).

besides, comfortable, all-cotton, litewieght (read delicate) summer tights are EXPENSIVE!

TzenaRena

Sun, May 13 2007, 10:12 am

chocolate moose wrote:

BTW - Lub don't have the hiddur of "long sleeves"; (as they do in oher communities) 3/4 sleeves (covering the elbow and thensome) is enough.

Not that there is anything wrong if someone wants to do this hiddur, yes it would be considered a hiddur. "Kadesh atzmecho b'mutar loch", of course it's a hiddur.

poelmammosh wrote:

I can understand your ambiguity, because it depends on what the Rabbonim pasken, and I don't know if they have paskened on this clearly to rule out knee socks. Although there was a letter from the Beis Din some years ago, in which it comes across that tights are a given, and at least preferred and definitely recommended.

healthymama

Sun, May 13 2007, 10:57 am

We started our daughter at three with wearing dresses. With short sleeves, whatever. And then gradually, as she becomes of school age, we phase out the short sleeves and include more long socks in her wardrobe. It has not been a problem. She has not rebelled and insisted she wants to wear short sleeves.

Op- do what you want. There will be many people who feel strongly one way or another.

greenfire

Sun, May 13 2007, 11:10 am

when dressing tznius one doesn't have to go and wear oversized clothing ... keep that in mind because it makes a difference on how the kid could handle it or not ... make it comfortable ... if they are tripping and boiling ... not a good thing ... so

Crayon210

Sun, May 13 2007, 11:13 am

healthymama wrote:

Op- do what you want. There will be many people who feel strongly one way or another.

Just because people feel strongly doesn't excuse the OP from asking a rav or mashpia.