To the Moms & Dads

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 11:09 pm

To The Moms & Dads:

This is kind've a spinoff to the 'daycare for the mikvah' thread. I appreciate you raising the next generation of Yidden, who IYH will be mentsches and help to bring the Beit haMikdash. You are my heroes. You go through sleepless nights, poopy diapers, and endless bills. I realize that having children, especially young children or children with special needs, is difficult and that you need to be cut slack. But, so do I.

Here is who I am: I bend over backwards to be accommodating to people with children- I offer to parents with young kids to go ahead of me in bathroom lines and grocery store lines. I smile kindly at parents when their children are screaming and throwing things in stores, doctors offices. I help parents carry things into my apartment building when they have too much, and regularly babysit for my neighbors who "need a night out" for free. I invite you for meals based around your babies sleep schedules, and drop you off hot meals after you've had babies and toys for your older children so they won't get jealous. I smile at you when I see you with your babies and compliment you on how smart, cute, sweet your children are. I buy the junk that your children sell for their schools to support them. I do this even though I am constantly reminded that I do not have children.

Despite everything, many of you seem to look down at me. When I say I'm tired, you respond "You don't understand 'tired' - you're not a parent" or smile at my condescendingly and say, "Wait for your turn." You expect that my time isn't busy because I'm not doing 2 a.m. feedings, and that you should always come first under every circumstance.

I love children, but I don't want to be around them 24/7 - so please don't wonder why I shoot you a dirty look when you bring your children into a high-end salon or restaurant, because you thought she'd "like the experience," on my day off while I'm relaxing. It's cute to give your 3 year-old a pedicure, but not while I have to listen to her yell while I'm paying $50 for mine..

Please parents, as much as I try to accommodate you, I also need you to accommodate us non-parents and people who don't have small children. We want to be there, to support you, but obnoxious parents ruin it for everyone.

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 11:28 pm

This post was written from several specific incidents that have happened to me over the past 2 weeks.

I don't think I come across as whiny, at least I'm trying not to. Two of the incidents: having a $150 dinner interrupted because the person at the next table starts changing her baby's diaper after the restaurant told her not to bring the baby! Then having women at work tell me, when they ask how I am, and I say "I'm tired.." and they tell me to shove it because I'm not a parent IT HURTS. I might not have a 2 year-old, but I at least try to help parents who have children. I'm not someone who just sneers at parents, I really try to help people out, but it's exhausting and disheartening to feel like I'm not important because I don't have children.

Thanks for the support, fellow childless imamother. Nothin' like dan l'chaf zechut.

amother

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 12:11 am

(I am BH a mom).

I do not think you sound whiny at all! You actually sound like a wonderful person, and as I was reading your post I was wishing everyone who hasn't yet been blessed could be as kind and considerate as you. Your feelings are totally reasonable and totally valid, and I completely understand how hard it must be to be extra-accommodating to others when you feel an emptiness yourself...

I hope all your dreams come true VERY soon - and that others will be as helpful to you when they do!!!

amother

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 12:29 am

amother wrote:

Ditto. I'm b"h a mom of older kids and understand where you are coming from on these issues. I also think you sound like a considerate, sensitive person who wouldn't mind if the consideration that you show others worked both ways.

IMHopinion

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 1:58 am

Telling you that you don't understand tired, or your days aren't busy because you aren't a mom, that's downright rude.

Taking kids to a restaurant or Salon or anywhere else, that's just too bad.

Although I understand your feeling, it's not a valid request to made of parents.

What happens when I pay $1300 for my international flight, for a once in a lifetime amazing honeymoon, and a family of 4 little children are seated near me in a cramped airplane?

Our world is filled with children, and we should not refrain from taking them places for this reason.

Rutabaga

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 2:10 am

I have a child and SIF, so I see this issue from both sides.

In day to day life, it can be painful to see pregnant women and babies, but we have to deal with it or else lock ourselves away. However, in environments that we expect to be child-free we let down our guard and it can be downright jarring to see/hear a child when we don't expect to. This is especially hurtful in places where IF hits us in the face, such as at the mikvah or at our IF doctor's offices.

Now people can argue about what constitutes an adult venue (high end salon or fancy restaurant or theater or whatever) where young children don't belong. The main thing is that people should have consideration for others. I'm not necessarily speaking about IF now. There are definitely parents who schlep their kids places they don't belong because it's more convenient for them. They should stop and think about how it will affect everyone else around them.

freidasima

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 2:54 am

Boy do I hear you.

As a mother of older children and a grandmother - I don't have children at home anymore full time, no one is underfoot and I'm getting up at night because of the ailments of age and not nursing babies. There are women my age however who still have seven and eight year olds around, and are tired from running after them, or the like, however that doesn't mean that my tiredness isn't legitimate as well.

One doesn't have to be still waiting to be blessed in order to appreciate a bit of empathy for one's exhaustion or want to spend one's off time in a child free zone to have peace and quiet. It's legitimate at any stage. The problem is twofold. One is wanting empathy if saying one is tired or whatever, and not getting it. The solution is just not to mention being tired, not to complain, not to say anything because you know you are just not going to be understood. Better to just say "ok" or "fine" when someone asks how you are and go on from there, even if you aren't fine, unless it's something really specific like "I have chicken pox" just leave it.

The other is a child free zone. They exist but rarely in frum areas, frum restaurants etc. Don't expect it even if it is promised. It doesn't go with the frum lifestyle and that's not about to change. Be realistic and know that the same way that the frum world is build around couples, Noah's ark style, and if you are a single for whatever reason, never married, widowed, divorced, it's going to be hard, same goes for kids. It's a society based on families and children and anything that won't include children is going to be a problem and people aren't going to listen. You will have children brought to chasunehs that specifically asked not to bring children, crying babies brought to places where one needs peace and quiet and the like. You will have people changing dirty baby diapers in public places where one should not, and they will not even think about it twice as they are so desensitized to it having changed 10 diapers that day alone. YOU ARE RIGHT. THEY ARE WRONG. You have now been vindicated. But unfortunately it's not about to change anywhere soon.

marina

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 9:43 am

It depends on the kids, doesn't it? If I'm eating at a nice restaraunt or getting my hair done and there are 50 well-behaved and lovely children, why should I be upset? Why should it affect me at all?

On the other hand, if I'm at the same place and there's some badly behaving child and a parent who is totally ignoring the situation - it makes zero difference whether you have kids or don't, that's just obnoxious.

And not being really tired b/c you don't have kids? Lol, clueless people.

debsey

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 10:02 am

Condescending is NEVER ok. Making someone feel like less of a person because they don't have kids - that's downright rude. Being anywhere - but especially in a place where "indoor voices" are expected - and not controlling your kids - totally inappropriate.
It is also inappropriate to shoot people dirty looks the minute they walk in anywhere with kids. OP sounds like a kind sensitive person, but I've had the experience of walking on a plane with a baby and being glared at like I just kicked your puppy, insulted your mother, and emitted foul body odor all at once! If it is a five star restaurant - I don't have to come. But on a plane? C'mon. Cut us some slack! You were a kid once too!
OP - parents of small kids come in all flavors. Try not to tar the decent ones with the same brush as the bad ones. That lady who is changing her screaming baby in the restaurant? She'd be yapping on top of her lungs on her cell phone if she was without her baby!

21young

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 10:12 am

B"h I am a mom of two little ones, and I hear you perfectly. When I pay for a babysitter so I can have a night out at a nice restaurant and then the table next to me shows up with noisy kids, I get really mad.

Yes, in the frum world we live a lifestyle that revolves around children, but there's a time and place. I try very hard not to bring my children when it's not appropriate, and I expect others to do the same.

Case in point, my aunt once made a beautiful Shabbos sheva brachos for my cousin at a hotel. Children were not invited. None of my arrangements for my baby were working out, so I decided to stay home. My aunt felt really bad, and she called to tell me that I could bring the baby, but I answered that I understand why she doesn't want children, and I don't want to ruin her beautiful affair. Since I was staying home anyway I hosted my niece for Shabbos so that my sister could go. Rant over. Smile

LittleDucky

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 10:18 am

As a mother who was single for a while when all my friends were getting married, having kids etc I totally understand you OP. I was the same way accommodating, babysitting, letting people cut me in line. Maybe don't help those who don't appreciate your kindness. No reason to run yourself ragged for people who can't seem to understand other people may be busy. Even without kids- people are busy! We aren't getting manicures and massages all day!
I try to be understanding and not bring my little one to places they don't belong. If my LO cries, I leave shul (and only go to begin with if it's a "good day" or they are asleep anyways). I don't go to fancy restaurants, a chasunah, or any similar place if I don't have a babysitter. I don't expect to be allowed to cut in line and only ask if it's a real emergency (diaper blow out and need to finish checkout to go to car to change?). Kids need to learn they need to wait in line.
But at the same time, when I went to a "family friendly restaurant" with my youngest that had a kids menu no less, and my infant LO was babbling (not crying, yelling or carrying on, just making the little noises as they do) I don't appreciate getting yelled at by another patron. I felt like retorting "if you want perfect silence, order takeout or go to the fancy restaurant where they don't have a stack of high chairs available!" I didn't yell as it wouldn't help things. But it was what I was feeling. I just kept silence to his verbal diatribe and wondered if I had to be locked up until my youngest was 18 as this baby was not crying, whining, or being cranky at all. Probably making less noise than the parents . Rolling Eyes

HonesttoGod

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 10:31 am

I think it is totally reasonable to allow people to complain in all situations.
I b"H have kids op but I still get what you mean from a different perspective. People telling me I cannot have it hard enough because....

Like the SAHM who told me how hard it is to have to dress her kids in time for her 11am appointment after I said something about forgetting to put on my sons tzitzis because his bus was coming and I was running out the house to work at 830am.
Or the lady who told me that even though I work FT it was my choice so obviously I am tired but I knew that would be the consequence. SHE on the other hand works PT, and is pregnant with #2 so she has a reason to be tired by no fault of hers.
How about the person who told me that the fact I am stressing about childcare during vacation week is normal and I shouldn't complain because bh for kids. And when I said "yes bh but it doesn't mean they are not hard and I cannot complain" she said "who brainwashed you to think they are easy?!". (coming from a fellow mom this was).

So yes. Some people are just rude. They don't get that their hardships are just as hard as others. I always tell my dh I complain when I work I complain when I don't I complain when I am hungry I complain when I eat too much. That is the way we are.
I just wish (like you) that people would be open to hearing and sympathizing with others complaints. We only say things (like I am exhausted or I am in pain or I feel ill) when we feel as so and want a bit of sympathy. Being nice doesn't hurt. Being rude OTOH can kill a person (mentally speaking).

Hug

mandr

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 11:20 am

Interestingly, when I'm out somewhere at a non-Jewish venue, I don't get any comments or looks. People are very undestanding when I ask for a quiet, private area to nurse my baby, or if I ask someone to please move aside so I can push my stroller through. When I'm shopping with my baby, people would come over to my carriage and ask me about my baby, how old he is, etc. and they interact with him. I think we should try to take a lesson and care about people with babies too, instead of looking at them as a nuisance. Every child is a treasure, and just because we B"H have lots of the, doesn't mean you can treat them not nicely.

That said, babies WILL be found at many places, restuarants, wedding halls, etc. so just look the other way if you can't handle it. I do agree, though, that such harsh comments OP received are completely uncalled for. But, OP, don't go helping others if it's going to make you feel upset afterwards.

Barbara

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 11:36 am

mandr wrote:

Now, I am relatively sure that you don't change your baby's diapers at the table of a restaurant or wedding hall, as OP described. Now, my kid is older. But even when he was a baby, I found that rude and disgusting. And I'm not going to look the other way. Nuh-uh. No way. I'm going to call the manager.

There are places that are not set up for babies or young children. Many high end restaurants, for example, don't have high chairs, and ask that you not bring babies. Now, no one can stop someone from bringing a young child into that environment, but the child should be expected to behave in a manner that most small children don't. IOW, if your baby starts screaming at the top of his lungs at a family restaurant, I expect you to try to calm him, but I don't expect you to leave. If he does that at the latest Winnie the Pooh movie, I expect you to leave if it goes on for something beyond a reasonable time (simply because others can't hear otherwise). If its the latest R-rated movie, if you can't calm him in less than a minute, head for the door.

morah

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 11:36 am

mandr wrote:

I've found davka the opposite. Shopping in a frum supermarket, kid melts down: I get plenty of bubbies giving me tips and telling me it'll IYH pass, and plenty of sympathetic "I get you" looks from younger parents. Same scenario in a Key Foods, it's total stink-eye and how dare you appear in public with your ill-mannered crotch-fruit in tow. I actually think frum people tend to have a much harder time figuring out when not to bring a baby because b'h we have so many and our public spaces tend to be pretty accommodating (or at least understanding). That's why it's so hard to be single or childless in our communities- we are set up for the default of couples plus children. While it obviously makes sense, as most frum adults are married with children, it has the effect of pushing those who are not to the margins, and also, you have families forgetting that these are nice perks and NOT entitlements, and thus they sometimes act like the world is obligated to step aside for their giant double strollers.

amother

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 11:51 am

I wonder what you'd think of this situation:

When I was single I stood on line in the snow at 10 PM to visit the Rebbe's room (considered holy in Lubavitch).

After me, maybe at 11:30 PM a bunch of women with babies got in line.

Someone in the back yelled: "Let the ladies with the babies go first!"

And they all ran and cut the line to the front. The same big mouth yelled out "Now this is Ahavas Yisroel!"

I was angry. I had waited an hour and a half and now had to wait an additional hour because these women brought babies?? I was also from out of town and these were locals.

I have children now B"H and still think it was disgusting.

If it was too snowy and midnight for babies, leave them at home.

This is one of many reasons I hate Crown Heights and never visit there.

debsey

Tue, Aug 26 2014, 12:52 pm

amother wrote:

they were totally wrong. You don't do a chessed on someone else's back, no matter how cold and tired you are. That being said, you can't judge the entire CH community based on the behavior of a few annoying women!