Seminary girls expected to wash dishes?

amother

Tue, Sep 02 2014, 11:56 pm

zaq wrote:

Not meaning to be harsh, OP, but I'm horrified (I'd use a different word but that would be harsher yet) by your dd attitude, and, as you fear, she sounds quite spoiled. Don't your children do dishes in your house? Didn't you teach them to offer to help when they eat or sleep at someone else's house? Smart parents who want to bring up responsible adults, teach their children to do chores even if they have full time domestic help--not because the help can't do it but because it's part of the child's education. By the time they were 6, your children should have known that the second half of "When you eat at someone's house...." is "offer to help with the dishes". Not too many people would really be willing to let a six-year-old help with the dishes, but the idea should be firmly planted in their brains so that when they reach the age at which people would accept the offer, they're ready.

By the time a young lady finishes HS she should know how to wash dishes, be sufficiently versed in etiquette to know that a guest should always offer to help the hostess, and have sufficent maturity to accept that sometimes in life we have to do things we don't particularly enjoy, simply because they're the right thing to do. If your dd doesn't know all these things, it's high time she learned.

Op here
My dd is very pleasant and thoughtful . She always offer to help serve the food and help with the kids. The thought of washing full set of dishes after a night meal with her Shabbos cloths on was not on her to do list for next year. Anyway as I read the replies I heard that most people don't expect the girls to wash the dishes. Even if they asked her to I'm sure she will do it willingly (though they will have to be a very nice family for her to come back).

cityofgold

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 12:11 am

I don't think it's spoiled not to want to wash someone else's dishes. I can see that some would find an "ick factor" there. I would find it spoiled not to want to help at all.

I have seminary girls. Most offer to help clear and serve, and that is appreciated. The girls I don't know help less than the ones I do know; I think because they just feel less comfortable. I understand that.

The girls I do know who come are very helpful. They play with my son, always help at the table, and occasionally offer to come before chagim to help out.

And, yes, the out-every-week situation is pretty bad and obviously a money saver for the seminaries, but I don't see it changing. It used to hang over me all week when I was in seminary. I hated it. I don't think I learned from those shabbosim. I'm shy, and what it meant was that I was just uncomfortable every week. And I get these desperate phone calls now from girls who have nowhere to go. I really hate the situation.

cinnamon

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 12:18 am

I also host sem girls sometimes. Most offer to serve and clear the table. Some offer to help prepare the meal.
One girl asked if she can take my kids to the park in the afternoon. That was very very appreciated and a real chesed.

If they don't offer but are hanging around in the kitchen I might ask for little things like taking the challas or salt to the table etc.

If they stay in their room I let them be and don't think anything of it.

amother

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 12:38 am

Just tellin.
DD had a syllabus of hilchos shabbos, and once the teacher began a new lesson by asking how exactly we wash dishes on shabbos. Dd says the girls were gaping and only mine said that we did it with a brush, not a sponge. The teacher nodded and instantly got angry with the rest of the class. She said, what's wrong with you girls? There was nothing wrong but the girls never got to wash dishes at home, especially on shabbos - there is a "[gentile woman]", isn't there?
I find it spoiled and terrible if you ask me.

So what's wrong with offering your help to wash dishes especially at impoverished families' where there's no "[gentile woman]" but the poor tired mother will do it all by herself? Where does the feeling come from that if I paid (no matter what, money, flowers, nosh, etc.) I'm entitled to my portion of food? WHere's chessed there? Where's mentchlihkeit?

Bas melech doesn't mean not being able to wash dishes! It means doing it with kovod as pertains a bas melech in everything she does. This is the message in our home, b"H.

catonmylap

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 3:02 am

Health is a Virture wrote:

this coming year, your girls should probably not bring wine to the hosts nor flowers...shmita problems. I have a few bottles of wine that I had to empty out because we didn't drink that hechsher and it was made from shmita grapes. I had to hold onto it and then dump every last drop. (unless they know hechsher that family will eat, etc.)
.

Wine shouldn't be a problem for a while, maybe toward the end of the year.... for quite a while, the wine will be last years grapes..

Imogen

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 3:26 am

OP enjoy time with your dd before she goes.

This thread reminded me of the time we lived in EY during the mid 1990s and the different types of sem girls we hosted for Shabbat.

I remember receiving a thank-you note from one artistic girl with a sketch of our little baby, another one used to follow me in the kitchen to talk about her family, she came from a loving Persian family in LA and was initially homesick, she was the first one girl in her family to have travelled abroad to sem. She quickly outgrew her homesick phase and instead used to write out fabulous recipes for us to make together, it was a lovely time. I used to think of her as my little sister. Another glamorous JAP type surprised us all by always turning up early before shabbat with my favourite chocolate bars and entertaining stories.

Having sem girls to visit can be a treat for the family, especially for the hostess. I enjoyed having some feminine company and am still in touch with some of the girls, getting extra special pleasure from their wedding photos and seeing them become mothers too. If I had not wanted visitors I would not have had them in my home, the girls that came all lent a hand in different ways, from cuddling and playing with our kids whilst I got food ready to getting busy in the kitchen itself.

Raisin

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 8:27 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Just wondering, does nobody have dish washers anymore? I know many families in Israel who have dish washers.....
Also, does anyone else not wash the dishes on shabbat? If we use real we just wait until after shabbat to wash them all.
Or, also, does nobody use plastic/paper when they have guests?

I wash up what I need for the next day. Cutlery, maybe some plates, depending on if I have paper goods for lunch. I don't like using plastic cutlery.

We have a dishwasher but I need to reload it 3 or 4 times after a typical shabbos, even using paper plates for lunch.

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 8:48 am

I know, slightly off topic, but I honestly DON'T think that the meals out is entirely a money saving gimmick. At least in my seminary, anyone who wanted to stay could, and the school would take care of meals (either by sending to teachers/madrichot in the area, or - if enough girls were staying - by bringing in food.) I think they honestly DO want the girls to have the option of getting to see and experience 'normal life' in all parts of the county. They have someone hired whose job is to find places for all the girls to go, regardless of where it is.

I have very few relatives in Israel. I got to meet lots of nice families in Yerushalayim, as well as travel to Bnei Brak, Chaifa, Netanya, Bet Shemesh, Tzfas, etc... all places I never would have been able to really experience without this option. (Yes, we went on a tiyul to Tzfas. But that does NOT compare to walking around the streets on Shabbos, going to shul...)

smss

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:01 am

kb wrote:

you know, part of it is that that's what most of the girls want, too. my seminary tried to have a few more in-shabbosos and most people were very unhappy about it. either people have relatives or they like chavayot. I didn't fit into either of those categories and really really would have preferred more in-shabbosos, but I was very much in the minority....

causemommysaid

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 9:19 pm

LittleDucky wrote:

One will be for dad

I don't know any normal fathers who would eat at the expense of their own children.

As a mother, I couldn't in good convenience invite rich american's (who will not go hungry) to eat in my home when I only have 3 portions of food to feed a whole family.

if this is really the culture in Israel to feed big strong males who should be providing for their children and rich guests who don't need to eat at these homes then the culture needs to change.

Imogen

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 4:19 am

Idea of having foreign guests for shabbat from yeshivot and seminary is to provide those kids with a different experience, the food is secondary to a shabbat ruach, a real ruach of mutual respect and sharing a shabbat together in a new family setting. We lived in EY and were kindly hosted by our neighbours as students and as a couple hosted students and visitors from abroad and outside of the area. We never had any guests who treated us a a hotel or cafe, when anyone walked into our home it was apparent we were a young family and that they were welcome not as as formal dignitaries but part of our tribe, that means joining in with help, song and food.

I too think it wrong that some sem and yeshiva students do behave as fee paying guests, criticising the food or even accommodation, but also wrong of hosts to not bring guests out of their shell and make them feel fully at home. I have at times actually refused guests I considered snotty or rude to come over, not directly but with a smile and a wriggle. Similarily I have eaten cold sandwiches with fruit for shabbat rather than visit a home where my presence was not welcome or I felt it wrong to partake of food a family could ill afford to hand out. Some times kids can be thoughtless and in their little bubble, then it is the responsibility of the sem and yeshiva to educate their students properly, not just in sitting in class and discussing Torah, but applying Torah to real life. Simple, you visit a home, kavod and a smile, you are a host, greet your guests and make them comfy. Simple and basic, hosting and visiting are about basic manners with a smile. It is a shame some kids are thrown out to fend for themselves for shabbat without due preparation and introduction by sems and yeshivot, that is plain wrong

Peanut2

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 11:36 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

ITA.

I learned it's preferable to not wash at all on shabbos, and if you need the dishes to wash before the meal you need it for, or something like that. It can be okay to wash after, and I rinse after meals because I need it for my emotional well-being.

tichellady

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 11:46 am

During my year in Israel I never offered to wash dishes or was asked when hosted for shabbat or holidays. For my weekly chessed, I helped a young family with health issues and would wash dishes there and do some laundry and tidying up, but I could have taken a different chessed opportunity if I didn't want to do that. I don't mind washing dishes, but honestly, I would want a guest to wash my dishes and a seminary girl is a guest, not someone who should be invited to clean up. I helped serve and did some kitchen prep, similar to what I do when I am a guest at someone's home in the United States.

I never ate at anyone's house that didn't have enough food. Some people didn't cook the same way that I do, but there was always plenty of food and fortunately I am not picky and am happy to fill up on challah, salads and soup instead of chicken.

The one thing that I found weird at first was that hosts asked me to bring my own sheets. Eventually, I just brought my own sheets whether I was asked or not as I realized that doing laundry was a much bigger deal for many people that it was for my parents. That was probably the only thing that surprised me.

mandksima

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 1:01 pm

Definitely offer to bring your own sheets as sometimes that is much harder than extra cooking especially as not everyone has a dryer or can afford to use it and in the winter it takes forever to dry.

Regarding eating at poor people's houses, I actually remember an experience I had more than 20 years ago as if it was yesterday. I once ate a very poor family's house which didn't have a bathroom door on their bathroom but just a curtain, served very tiny portions and I could tell the other kids shared what what left from the two of us that were guests. That was one of the most eye-opening experiences for me that year though because they were so happy to have us as guests! You could see their simcha and the children there were so happy and it sure didn't seem like they were bothered that we ate some of their food. I had eaten at so many families during the course of the year from all over the spectrum of financial ability but I never saw such simcha at fulfilling hachnasot orchim. That has stayed with me all of these years.

Maybe buy your daughter some washable Shabbos clothes and encourage her to visit all kinds of families and offer whatever help necessary. It does sound "Jappy" to me as I don't see what could be scary or gross about it - doesn't she change other kids' dirty diapers when babysitting? It is part of life and best not to feel put out about it. She probably won't be asked to do it, I don't believe I ever was but I sure did offer to do them - especially other times than on Shabbat, such as erev Shabbat and it was well received.

I have been put off by sem girls that have stayed with us over the years sometimes. Most were nice enough but anytime I felt that they felt they were above getting up to help, I felt annoyed. By the time I get to Friday night, I am exhausted and guests are nice to have but not if it makes me feel like a slave. Sometimes boys are better guests as if they don't know better so they are prepared better on proper ways of being a guest but girls just sort of know what to do so they aren't told and it is sad that many just don't know what it takes to get Shabbos together and have guests.

LittleDucky

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 2:37 pm

causemommysaid wrote:

I had that experience. What can I tell you? There was NO food. No way for even half of the people there to feel even semi-full. We went back to the dorm and ate.

zaq

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 3:23 pm

causemommysaid wrote:

so the father got a portion of chicken and the kids ate bread?

why bother inviting guests in such a situation?

they sound dysfunctional.

1. Local families are often pressured by the schools to host guests.
2. Idealists want to have guests. They have little but are willing to share what little they have, either lishmah or for the sake of Olam Haba. In our lexicon, this is called "being tzaddikim", not being dysfunctional.

Do I think it's a little bit nuts to take food out of your own child's mouth to give to guests? Sure I do, but I also realize that I'm a cynic, on a rather low spiritual madregah, and the fact that I am incapable of understanding the mindset doesn't mean that it has no merit.

Last edited by zaq on Thu, Sep 04 2014, 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total