No cheider for my son!!!

Jeanette

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 11:33 am

frimamom wrote:

I actually don't care about which chasidos. If other have Long or short peyis, wigs, etc. But I do want my son to stay chasidish. But the chasidish cheiders in Boro Park don't care about the things that really matter. They don't care if I am frum, chasidish, etc. If I don't go dressed 100% the way they like, they won't accept my son. And the cheider that usually do accept people like me have their classes full already. Because of this, my son will probably not grow up chasidish.

I don't understand this.

He is growing up in a chassidish home. He will learn torah in school and at home he will learn minhagim, hashkafos, etc.

I know many people from chassidish homes who went to non-chassidish schools for a variety of reasons and it didn't change who they are.

Rutabaga

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 11:35 am

frimamom wrote:

What's more important to you - that your son will grow up chassidish or that you don't have to change the way you dress temporarily?

Barbara

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 11:52 am

frimamom wrote:

I can't imagine how you must be feeling, struggling to find a school at this point when you thought it was already settled. And trying to keep one step ahead of everyone else in the same position. I'm sure that, without all that stress, you'd be feeling differently.

So please, think about these things when it calms down:

(1) He's just a little boy. The school he's in now isn't necessarily where he'll be next year, or in 5 years. It's ridiculous to think that these few months, at this age, will establish the course of his lifetime. He may be Chassidish when he grows up. He may not. I can't predict. But I doubt this will be the deciding factor.

(2) I think it's absolutely obscene to reject children from schools because Mom wears her sheitel in a particular way. But it still might be a good idea for you to think about why you choose to do certain things, if you believe that there are dire consequences in terms of the trajectory of your children's lives that result from those choices. Me, if the principle of what I was doing was sufficiently important to me, if I wouldn't want my children growing up believing it was wrong, I wouldn't change. Eg, if a school were to say, "we won't accept children whose mothers say kaddish," I wouldn't want my kids there. But if it were more like "we think you should wear your hair a couple of inches shorter," that's not part of who I am, why not.

In any case, best of luck in finding a place for your son. Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned asking to be put on a waiting list. That's a great idea. Also, call all the schools on Monday, when they see if they had any first-week attrition.

frimamom

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 12:10 pm

Barbara wrote:

If I put my son in a not chasidish cheider I cannot change him to a chasidish cheider later. One of the crazy things about the chasidish cheiders here is that they don't accept boys that were in a not chasidish cheider.

When you grow up in a place where there's only 1 or 2 cheider everyone goes there. It's a big mix of all different type of people. In a place like Boro Park where there's a cheider for every type, if he goes to a not chasidish cheider he will realize that he is the only one. He will want to fit in and be like everyone else.

Rutabaga

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 12:14 pm

frimamom wrote:

First of all, it's not a temporary change.
Second of all, I wrote before I am not a person who can live a double life. I am who I am, I am the person my husband married, etc. Even though all those things are small things to change, it is not who I am. I cannot pretend to be something I am not.

That's all well and good, and normally I would agree with you that you shouldn't have to change the way you dress in order to conform to an arbitrary standard. But where does that leave your son?

And who you are should not depend on what you look like - it's who you really are on the inside that truly matters. I don't know these schools at all, but would making small changes in dress really affect your personality and belief system?

When I go shopping in Brooklyn I wear a sheitel and pantyhose out of respect for my surroundings. At home I run errands in a bandana and sandals. I'm still the same person in both locations even if I look a little different.

What does your husband think about this situation?

watergirl

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 12:25 pm

frimamom wrote:

If your son chooses not to be chassidish, it wont be due to what cheder he goes to. It might have to do with seeing how gaivadik the whole system is, and wanting to live a more penimisdik life style.

summer0808

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 12:40 pm

May I give my very humble opinion? You might not like it. On one hand you don't want to change the way you dress to a more chasidishe look and on the other hand, your son wears curly payos and you don't want him to feel out of place.

This is the mixed message! Curly payos comes with shorter shaitelech. So you have a problem. The chasidishe chedarim with curly payos boys want short shaitel mothers. the schools that have long shaitel mothers don't have curly payos boys!

You're 'maching aveck' chadarim that it's not for us. Is it because they're too chasidish or too modern? You've got to choose.

You say you want your son to be chasidish. What does it mean to be chasidish. BP chasidish emphasizes mother's tznius. It's a package deal.

frimamom

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 12:52 pm

Rutabaga wrote:

I wish the cheiders would care about the inside but they don't. And about changing little things, they don't change my beliefs but they will change my life. If I have to change for them, then for the next 20 years every time I want to buy something or do something I'll have to think twice if the cheider he's in will approve. I won't be able to live like that. My husband doesn't think he can do it either. Today they say don't trim your beard, wear a shorter wig, tomorrow they say something else. I can't live thinking what will they disapprove now.

frimamom

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 1:03 pm

summer0808 wrote:

Curly peyis does not need shorter wigs. There's a big crowd in Boro Park like this. And I'm not 'maching avek' anything. When I was asked what I'm looking for I said a regular chasidish but not Salman, vuznitz, Belz, not because I am saying they are not good for me, it's because there is no chance for me to get accepted there. And last time I checked tznius has nothing to do with a long wig or a lot of the other rules they make parents follow. I am very frum and nothing I wear is not tznius-dig.

penguin

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 3:10 pm

Quote:

I am very frum and nothing I wear is not tznius-dig.

I am glad you mentioned this OP, because I was thinking about how to ask, in a very tactful way - is there any possibility that the schools you want are saying no because your skirts do not quite cover your knees?

Clearly, a school can set a standard for what type of children they want to take, from what kind of homes. If the school asks you to sign that you don't have internet in your home, or that, if you do, it is filtered, will you be able to sign honestly? (Don't know if they do that in Brooklyn, I am sure some schools do.)

Have you looked into Boyan? I think that they are very tolerant and accepting, and have a range of kids starting from Litvish (I guess payos behind the ears) but I am not sure of the full extent of how long or curly the payos get.

Maybe the schools that you want believe that women are supposed to dress a certain way. If that's what all of them are telling you (or not telling you) you need to decide if you want to fit into that kind of community, or find a community that is more open-minded.

frimamom

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 4:38 pm

penguin wrote:

Quote:

I am very frum and nothing I wear is not tznius-dig.

Boyan told me no last year already. And yes I have internet with a filter is locked in a closet

amother

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 6:28 pm

I don't think any cheder will take you with open arms. Unfortunately that's just how it is nowadays. You need to get on your hands and knees and beg.
Does your chasidus have a cheder?
It seems to me that you want the best of both worlds. And if you can pull that off then good for you! I belong to a large middle of the road chasidus and I conform because it's worth it for me to belong to a place and to have my kids go through the 'system'. I wear a shorter sheitel than I would have liked and bit less trendy clothes but it don't have to worry about getting my kids accepted into school and cheder and then summer camp and mesivta and yeshiva gedolah etc.

amother

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 8:06 pm

Let us put it this way. An institution or community can use - or try to use - blackmail.

In other words, how can a community force people to use internet filters? By making them sign when they register their kids for school. (Of course, they can't be sure the parents are telling the truth, but they seem to think parents will be honest. And if your kids comes in to school talking about the videos he watched, uh-oh!)

They can also try to force women to dress a certain way if they want to belong to the community/get their children into school. Some schools will accept parents who are a little different and try to influence them.

Parents always have a choice to find a school/community where their lifestyle choices are accepted, or to conform to another community if that's where they want to be accepted.

I don't think you can have it both ways. You can't say "I want my child to go to school X, and they have to accept him, even if I don't dress the way they want." You have to make a choice.

You clearly understand that there may be schools where the standard is that women don't drive. And/or that they don't take Family Circle or Redbook into the house.

Why is sheitel length different? If I want to open a school where you can only teach/send your kids if your sheitel doesn't go past your earlobes, and it's a private school, I guess I can do that. Assuming I can find enough people to enroll, of course.

Let's say I believe long sheitels past the shoulder are lacking in tznius. I can try to raise my children to follow my opinions. But then they get older, their friends/teachers have long hair/sheitels. And guess what? They do what they want. I kind of wish I could have found a school where the friends/teachers did not have long/hair sheitels. Unfortunately, the local Chassidish high school that would have met those criteria opened too late for me. But, you know what? It would have been a terrible fit for my girls in other ways. So I guess it's good I didn't get to consider it. So now I just appreciate them for being wonderful frum girls who regretfully disagree with my opinion on hair/sheitels. As do most young ladies today. You can just call me an old fuddy-duddy!

naturalmom5

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 8:17 pm

amother wrote:

Well this old fuddy duddy doesn't understand the reason for hair covering at all
None of my grandmother's peers covered their hair and they were a 1000s times more kind caring and compassionate then then holy rebbitzens of today .
PULEEZE

frimamom

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 8:34 pm

amother wrote:

To the old fuddy duddy's: if your daughter grows up and likes longer wigs what would you tell her if she is having problems finding a cheider? Would you tell her to give up what she does and likes to please some people that think they are better than you just because their wives might go with a hat or a shpitzel? Our world is so messed up. Those people seriously think I am less religious cause the length of my wig. Do you find your daughter to be less religious cause she likes a longer wig than what you have?

amother

Thu, Sep 04 2014, 9:39 pm

I said:

Quote:

So now I just appreciate them for being wonderful frum girls who regretfully disagree with my opinion on hair/sheitels. As do most young ladies today.

OP, you seem to be feeling resentful of these schools, and suspecting it's the length of your wig.

There are poskim who have said a sheitel can't be long than shoulder or collarbone, in Lakewood, for example. I doubt schools in Lakewood are enforcing this, although there are many sheitel-machers who will cut a sheitel at no charge to make it shorter.

We've had many threads, and we can re-visit them, on whether longer hair/sheitel is less tzanus. (After all, why do you care to cut it? Because you feel you don't look 'good' enough if you cut it, right?)

But that's not the point here. The point is, if you think being in a chassidishe cheder is so important to your son's chinuch, you have to make a choice. And if you want to choose a less chassidish cheder, you'll have to see if he feels funny. (Watch out, he might be the one doing the cutting - of his own payos!)

Or you can try calling the wives of the principals or Board members and asking them if your sheitel is the reason you're not getting in. Then maybe you'll know!