What is the secret that creates respect and fear?

Chayalle

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:07 am

L25 wrote:

when your child is young pick a day and when he disobeys you potch him, keep doing that until he listens and then give him a kiss. Then give him lots of opportunities to do the right thing and kiss, praise etc It works like pavlovian dogs.

He claims your kids will forget about being potched but subconsciously they will know not to disobey you because there will be bad consequences even though they don't necessarily remember what they are.

L25

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:18 am

chayalle- I agree with you. I might have misunderstood a bit though don't thinks so. may be should be gentle but...
. if you are interested I can pm you who says it. I mean it's on torah anytime- easy to find. I think he says not to potch in general- just this one time to set things ups for you and only under a certain age but yeah as I said I'll pass on the secret. other things he said made sense, he talked about making sure to have fun with your kids etc. etc...

My point though was that sometimes "the secret" is something that the op really wouldn't want to do.

acccdac

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:46 am

One other point that no one here has mentioned is that many times it has to do with how children saw their own parents treating their parents.

in terms of being a teacher, my principal (I'm a teacher) said the following line, She specifically said not to use these words but the gist was "In my classroom you may not breath unless I tell you too, but if you follow the first part I will take you on a journey you will never forget"

I feel like parenting needs to have that balance too. I AM THE BOSS OF THIS HOUSEHOLD, but at the same time I will cry like a baby for your pain and love you to the moon and back!

the world's best mom

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 12:44 pm

L25 wrote:

op this line from your post jumped at me "My dh doesnt listen to me. "- I think therin may lie your problem. If children see that your husband doesn't respect you then why should they? I would suggest you figure out why that is, may be talk to him, may be get an outsider involved if necessary- I'm not saying you have to run to marriage counseling but I do think you have an issue that needs to addressed.

To answer your question about secret I listened to a class that gave one and my husband and I chose NOT to implement. Call us crazy but to us but it didn't seem right, we didn't want to treat our children like that.. If I remember correctly this was the secret:

when your child is young pick a day and when he disobeys you potch him, keep doing that until he listens and then give him a kiss. Then give him lots of opportunities to do the right thing and kiss, praise etc It works like pavlovian dogs.

He claims your kids will forget about being potched but subconsciously they will know not to disobey you because there will be bad consequences even though they don't necessarily remember what they are.

I agree about your point regarding husbands listening. If a husband doesn't show respect for his wife, the kids are likely to learn from his example. Rabbi Krohn has a lot to say about that.

I also heard the class you are referring to. It was R' Bentzion Klatzko, Ten Commandments of Raising Exceptional Children. It is on Torah Anytime. He says it is just an hour of potching and then a lifetime of the kid listening automatically, but I don't think it's a good idea either. He stressed the importance of praising the kid for good listening- he says to keep telling the kid to do things so you can praise her for listening. This has to be done with a kid who is under 4.

Instead, I tell my toddlers to do things and then I help them (read: force them to) listen. I don't take no for an answer from my children, ever. It works, without any potching involved. My older kids know I mean business because not obeying was never an option, from the time they were toddlers. My two year old just started testing me now, with a big smile on his face, and he listens beautifully when I command him to do things once or twice.

sourstix

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 12:58 pm

you yourself wrote part of the answer. your grandmother was calm loving and caring. its more, its about her thinking of others more then herslef. I am assuming. I dont know her. but when you see that someone cares about you and puts themselves in the side. you have such love for that person. whereas someone that will yell, hit and make a scene out of things. you lose respect for that person. when we chose not to respond with emotions but with calmness and respect and love to others it will shine back. like a mirror. kmayim el panim ken lev haadam. not sure if its all the words in the chazal. I have it well out but I need chizuk in this area too. I too lose it and yell and complain I am losing out when I do that. children need a role model if we say to our kids I am angry now and I will not respond until I calm down they will do the same hopefully. they follow what we do. when someone insults us how do we respond? thats what our children will see. and we cant fool them they are very smart and have us figured out very quicklya and very young. hope this helps.

Chayalle

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 2:09 pm

the world's best mom wrote:

I also heard the class you are referring to. It was R' Bentzion Klatzko, Ten Commandments of Raising Exceptional Children. It is on Torah Anytime. He says it is just an hour of potching and then a lifetime of the kid listening automatically, but I don't think it's a good idea either. He stressed the importance of praising the kid for good listening- he says to keep telling the kid to do things so you can praise her for listening. This has to be done with a kid who is under 4.

Instead, I tell my toddlers to do things and then I help them (read: force them to) listen. I don't take no for an answer from my children, ever. It works, without any potching involved. My older kids know I mean business because not obeying was never an option, from the time they were toddlers. My two year old just started testing me now, with a big smile on his face, and he listens beautifully when I command him to do things once or twice.

Well I'll just stick to my current parenting mentors. R' Matisyahu Salamon from Lakewood believes in minimal potching, if at all (like only if they have done something dangerous and are at an age where the potch will make them afraid to do something much more detrimental). He says that when you potch a child, the child is not feeling regretful for the action; rather the child is resentful and thinking if only he/she were the adult, he/she would be potching you! It's basically counterproductive.

I don't know if R' Klatzko has a Torah source for his idea for an hour of potching, or if he heard this from current Rabbanim and/or professionals. If so I'd like to hear it. If not, with all due respect I hope no one does this.

amother

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 2:30 pm

L25 wrote:

L25, I just want you to know that I read your whole post and know that you don't do this to your kids!

Moving on..

I do NOT recommend this approach at all. My parents mixed love and potching and it was disastrous. They would probably say that it "worked" because I obeyed, but now I have very serious issues about being close to people. When my husband and I are in a fight, or even a small disagreement, I want him to hit me so I can feel like he loves me again. Crazy? Yeah. But I know exactly where it comes from.

Also...potching/spanking...the backside is a s-xual organ. When someone is spanked hard, they often feel a pleasant sensation in areas that then make them associate this type of pain with please. Even when a child is so young they do not know what s-x is, they are still able to have physical sensations in those regions, EVEN IF the spanking is extremely unpleasant (not saying everyone does). I've talked about this with several other people who were spanked when they were children and I am not the only one this has happened to. Now that I'm an adult, I have been trying to hard to disassociate being beaten with s-x and love. But really, s-x without spanking is not enjoyable.

It's a disaster. Please, OP, do not do potching with your kids. Or if you do, it might be best to *not* tell them you love them afterwords. Maybe just leave them to cry alone so they don't feel like beating means love. But that would be horrible, wouldn't it? I cannot imagine.

I do have two books that I highly recommend. They are not frum books but they are wonderful.

Non-violent communication: a language of life (http://www.amazon.com/Nonviolent-Communication-A-Language-Life/dp/1892005034)

Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn (http://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409768951&sr=1-1&keywords=alfie+kohn+unconditional+parenting)

freidasima

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 2:30 pm

With a lot of kids it is pure fear at the basis because they know that their parents love is not absolute and they will do anything to get and keep that parent's love.

With some kids it's parents really being bossy, having no sense of humor, and demanding absolute obedience with the children knowing there will be serious sanctions if they don't toe the line.

It is like the potching. You don't have to hit. You just withdraw affection. You ignore said child. You make them feel unwanted. And then when they once again toe the line you give them love and affection. That, too is pavlovian, and in my opinion not worth it...

And there is inborn personality. The rebel, the child with guts and chutzpa will turn his back on such a parent and say " you don't want to talk to me? Your problem" while the sensitive child will do anything to placate the parent and earn his or her love.

Hence these so obedient children? Many are just sensitive and were "Trained" as children by having the one thing they needed, absolute love, and acceptance, withheld until they toed the line.

seeker

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:00 pm

the world's best mom wrote:

I listened to that one, too, and my main issue with it was not the potching - as per his philosophy, I could see it *maybe* being worth it IF IT WORKED. However, I am highly skeptical because I have seen on my own kids so many advances and regressions with EVERY technique that "worked" that I can't imagine one good potch in toddlerhood will last the duration of childhood. For example, I used a combination of positive discipline and time outs/1-2-3 type system with my daughter when she was around 2 (a big 2, not baby) until she got the message and behaved beautifully with hardly any "maintenance." Then sometime after 3 1/2 she suddenly started a phase of testing and asserting her independence. I imagine this happens at several times during childhood and if you're counting on your one potch 2 or more years ago to last through them all I'm not sure how that's going to work.

What I would like to know, TWBM, is what you mean by "don't take no for an answer" if not consequences. Let's say I decide to try answering no. WHAT HAPPENS? Clever mildly attitudinal almost-4 here. Tons of limit testing and if you have some secret charm that works without punishment I WANT IT.

amother

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:14 pm

busymom wrote:

Another thing, my husband and I always back each other up. ("Don't raise your voice at Mommy!" "If that's what Tatty said, I'm sure he had a good reason for it.") I think children respect their parents more when they see how we stick up for each other and demand respect for the other one.

And despite everything I wrote above... I often have the same question you do op! Smile

not to hijack the thread, but I have a problem with this.

My husband reads out loud from a sefer at the shabbos table. He can read for 30 minutes straight. He does not make an effort to bring it down to the children's level or make it interesting. He also expects everyone to sit quietly until he's finished, and he wants me to enforce it.

I find it very hard to do this. I don't want to teach my kids to disrespect their father and I try to sit quietly myself but I think it's a bit much to expect little kids to sit through a recital from a sefer for a half-hour.

Yes, I have asked him to either explain it on their level or shorten it but he says he "doesn't know how to do it" and I should say the DT if I can do it better. the truth is I could but I don't want to usurp his place. I feel that the father should say the DT at the shabbos table.

seeker

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 10:25 pm

amother wrote:

If they're too little to sit, can they be directed (before the DT starts) to play with a quiet toy away from the table during that time? Though of course as soon as they decide they're old enough to sit for the whole thing, there's a great treat waiting for the ones who do it successfully?

Though frankly if it's just reading from a sefer, I don't understand why he can't cut it short. Why can't he read 3 pages instead of 10 pages from the sefer? Or choose a sefer with shorter divrei Torah? MEN - I will never understand their reasoning!!! Rolling Eyes

Gitch

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:17 pm

I brought up this question to my kids at dinnertime, to get their responses. They are pretty well behaved and for the most part comply with my requests. I was curious to hear their thoughts. My ten year old was visibly confused when I said 'fear'. He couldn't understand why kids should fear their parents, or why parents would want that from their kids. He said he listens because it is the right way to behave towards others, its just the right thing to do. My 9 year old said that he remembers receiving consequences when he was younger, so he was trained towards certain behaviours, and he continues behaving this way bec. that is what he is used to. My four year old said because kids love their parents so they listen to them.

I don't think there is any one size fits all answer that will work for every personality type of parent and child. Here are some things I like to be aware of, that has worked for me:

- consistency in expectations, consequences to behavior (both positive and negative) and follow through.
- being aware of child development and age appropriateness of my expectations and adjust my reaction to their behavior accordingly.
- showing respect to my children, hearing their viewpoints, listening to their concerns and acting accordingly.
- emotional attachment, close family relationship between myself, my husband and my kids.
- talking positively (do this rather than don't do that).

Good luck!

Last edited by Gitch on Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

goodmorning

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:25 pm

amother wrote:

Unclear what kind of a sefer it is, or what the ages of your children are, but if your husband is open to your taking charge, why don't you run a joint "study session" with the sefer? Your husband read a page, you translate into English and open up a discussion session with the kids? That way, the father is doing the teaching and you haven't usurped his position (and your husband gets to enjoy his sefer-reading), but the kids get a more down-to-earth discussion that they can grasp.

the world's best mom

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:25 pm

seeker wrote:

What I would like to know, TWBM, is what you mean by "don't take no for an answer" if not consequences. Let's say I decide to try answering no. WHAT HAPPENS? Clever mildly attitudinal almost-4 here. Tons of limit testing and if you have some secret charm that works without punishment I WANT IT.

I make them listen every single time. I tell my 2 year old, "Put that down." He smiles and says "no" or "why?" So I tell him again and I take it out of his hand and put it down for him. He hits dd repeatedly on the head, I say to stop and then I pull his hand off. I say come here, he runs away, I catch him and bring him where I wanted him. Consistency is the key- I can never decide I'm too lazy to go run after him and I'll let it go this time. If I say something, it has to happen.

As you may very well know, my children are not angels. Not by a long shot. Ds has been through some very rough years, bullying and wrecking. But every single time I witness a misbehavior, I am there helping him correct it. He ALWAYS gets a time out after hurting someone and has to make them feel better afterwards. I never let him just run away. I chased him and held him and made him do what he was told. He doesn't even try running away anymore. He knows I won't allow it.

At this point, he has become MUCH better already. My girls may sometimes cry when I make them go to bed or clean up of whatever, but they listen. My oldest is too big to force physically, but I don't need to force either of my girls physically anymore for anything, because I did so much of it when they were 2-5. It's hard work, but it pays off.

Gosh, I sound so mean here. But I'm really not. I play with my kids a lot and have a very close relationship with them. We have a great time together. But when they want to not obey my commands, I teach them that it's not okay.

the world's best mom

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:42 pm

I should mention that if dh or I would speak for half an hour at the Shabbos table, my kids would be playing or relaxing elsewhere, not sitting at the table with us and listening. And they would interrupt every few minutes to tell me "very important" pieces of information and to ask for more food or drinks. And we would be fine with that because they are children who should not be expected to sit quietly for half an hour at the Shabbos table IMO.

amother

Wed, Sep 03 2014, 11:48 pm

the world's best mom wrote:

That's very nice for you and your family, but maybe you can begin to understand the dilemma that some people have when both parents are NOT on the same page and one or the other has unreasonable expectations for what children should be doing. Very hard for parents to work together and show mutual respect in those circumstances.