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Anti-semitism - the reason to come on Aliya
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 7:36 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Sanguine, this argument has been going on since the beginning of time and the beginning of imamother (some time in 2004)
You are not going to change their minds and they are not going to change your mind.
I think the best thing here, truly, is to just agree to disagree.

(I completely agree with you Smile )
Things change and people rethink. I have 3 close friends who didn't come on aliya right away and seemed that they would just wait till they retire. Then each had a different reason when their kids were teens to just make it work cause they reprioritized their lives. Many who "can't" "can" but it won't be easy. In life, some good Jews work on Shabbat cause there's no other way to make a living. Other Jews say I'll wear rags and live on just rice but I will never ever work on Shabbat.

With all the renewed anti-semitism around the world, other people might want to rethink their decisions.

It's never too late to talk and to think
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 7:40 am
rachel91 wrote:
Not wanting and not having the ability are two different things.

I'm certainly not judging anyone. There are people who really can't. But I'm talking about people who actually can if they want. It's hard but depends how much someone wants to.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 7:43 am
Sanguine wrote:
Things change and people rethink. I have 3 close friends who didn't come on aliya right away and seemed that they would just wait till they retire. Then each had a different reason when their kids were teens to just make it work cause they reprioritized their lives. Many who "can't" "can" but it won't be easy. In life, some good Jews work on Shabbat cause there's no other way to make a living. Other Jews say I'll wear rags and live on just rice but I will never ever work on Shabbat.

With all the renewed anti-semitism around the world, other people might want to rethink their decisions.

It's never too late to talk and to think
Sanguine, did you see a mass exodus from america when 9/11 happened? No. Yes, families did come, but en mass? Nope, not at all. Antisemitism is not the same as the holocaust, thank Gd. Im not disagreeing with you per say, but I see the other side as well.

Look, there are any number of reasons why people change their minds to make aliyah, but there are many many many communities out there, as we know, that dont put aliyah on the table. Only when mashiach comes will they make their lives here. I say fine. If they dont want to be here, I wouldnt want them here. Who wants someone who would be complaining all of the time about living here?
And you know what? If the anti semitism gets so bad? The plane loads will come. They will.

Dont try to change someone's mind about this. It just wont work. Its a very charged topic.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 7:47 am
5mom wrote:
To those who need Moshiach to arrive before you will consider coming to Israel: When Moshiach comes, will you suddenly know how to speak Hebrew? Will the Israeli economy suddenly change?
I pray that people will accept Hashem's great gift to us with open arms and on its own terms.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't picture Moshiach coming and us living in the State of Israel as it exists today. We speak of Melech HaMoshiach, implying that he himself with rule over us, not whoever is the PM or president of Israel today, and not with the Knesset either.

I certainly do think that the economy of E"Y will change. Here is the Rambam's take on yemos HaMoshiach (Hilchos Melochim 12:8), and recall that he has the more pragmatic view of that time; other Rishonim describe a far more supernatural existence.
Quote:
ח [ה] ובאותו הזמן, לא יהיה שם לא רעב ולא מלחמה ולא קנאה ותחרות--שהטובה תהיה מושפעת הרבה, וכל המעדנים מצויין כעפר. ולא יהיה עסק כל העולם, אלא לדעת את ה' בלבד. ולפיכך יהיו חכמים גדולים, ויודעים דברים הסתומים העמוקים; וישיגו דעת בוראם כפי כוח האדם, שנאמר "כי מלאה הארץ, דעה את ה', כמים, לים מכסים" (ישעיהו יא,ט).


Not sure what speaking Ivrit has to do with Moshiach coming either. Maybe we will all revert to speaking Lashon HaKodesh. Maybe we will go back to Aramaic (which used to be used for daily conversation so as not to defile Lashon HaKodesh with mundane speech). I have the feeling that if Hashem can manage to gather us from all the corners of this earth and bring us to E"Y, He can help us get over the language barrier.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 7:51 am
Did you ever read, or look up sources about mashiach? People say so so many different things about how he's coming, when he's coming, what we are going to do, how we are going to do it. Each theory is so different from the next, I'm not willing to give up my entire life and move to Israel for the unknown. The Rabbis keep saying he's going to come by this date, and this date, and he never came. He is about to come for a hundred years already. No one knows ANYTHING. For all we know Hashem doesn't want us to have Israel as a country before Mashiach is here (that's the whole satmer point of veiw) I'm not turning my whole life upside down just to wait, and it's not clear what I'm waiting for. Even in the times of the bais hamikdash not every one lived in Israel and they came up for the shalosh regalim. It's a holy land, and I love it! But I'm waiting for mashiach here in America and nothing is going to change that.

Now start throwing the tomatoes! I'll duck.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 7:53 am
Nothing like a thread like this to turn people off from aliyah.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 7:54 am
amother wrote:
Did you ever read, or look up sources about mashiach? People say so so many different things about how he's coming, when he's coming, what we are going to do, how we are going to do it. Each theory is so different from the next, I'm not willing to give up my entire life and move to Israel for the unknown. The Rabbis keep saying he's going to come by this date, and this date, and he never came. He is about to come for a hundred years already. No one knows ANYTHING. For all we know Hashem doesn't want us to have Israel as a country before Mashiach is here (that's the whole satmer point of veiw) I'm not turning my whole life upside down just to wait, and it's not clear what I'm waiting for. Even in the times of the bais hamikdash not every one lived in Israel and they came up for the shalosh regalim. It's a holy land, and I love it! But I'm waiting for mashiach here in America and nothing is going to change that.

Now start throwing the tomatoes! I'll duck.
I just wanted to say, before I go and light the shabbat candles, that we who did make aliyah, are not here to wait for mahiach. Yes, thats a plus to it, but we (most of us anyway) have made aliyah to gain a more spiritual life in terms of sooooo many things in yehadut. Not to wait for mashiach. That we can do in timbuktu.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 7:58 am
Make Aliyah! Israel is a great place and so so many benifts! If it works for you, then do it! But don't try to convince me to move there to wait for mashiach, that's not a good enough reason.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:01 am
Can I just point out that while there are a bazillion benefits to living in EY, escaping anti semitism is not one of them? I would bet that there have been more hate crimes against Jews in Israel in the last few years than anywhere else in the world. So it's kind of ironic that this is your selling point. Israel today is not the geulah. You can't go there to escape galut.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:05 am
Quote:
I'm not turning my whole life upside down just to wait, and it's not clear what I'm waiting for.
So why are you amother? Maybe you'll get thrown off? doesn't sound like you believe all the Ani Maamins? Wait, we'll tell moshiach to wait and not "turn your whole life upside down". One less passenger for those overworked eagles.

We're starting Shabbat now so you're on your own there
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:08 am
MaBelleVie wrote:
Can I just point out that while there are a bazillion benefits to living in EY, escaping anti semitism is not one of them? I would bet that there have been more hate crimes against Jews in Israel in the last few years than anywhere else in the world. So it's kind of ironic that this is your selling point. Israel today is not the geulah. You can't go there to escape galut.


Yes! That's another thing that's irking me. When the man in maimi got shot on the way to Shul everyone was saying how America is not safe anymore for Jews, everyone run home to Israel. At the same time a man on the way to Shul had a bus fall on him. Plus all the rockets flying. How would moving to Israel make me feel safer as a Jew? Again, Israel is a holy place and lots of benifts, but not these.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:12 am
Sanguine wrote:
Quote:
I'm not turning my whole life upside down just to wait, and it's not clear what I'm waiting for.
So why are you amother? Maybe you'll get thrown off? doesn't sound like you believe all the Ani Maamins? Wait, we'll tell moshiach to wait and not "turn your whole life upside down". One less passenger for those overworked eagles.

We're starting Shabbat now so you're on your own there


I can wait and daven for him to come anywhere in the world. Why MUST I wait for Him in Israel? When He comes then yes ill gladly go! But why do I must wait there?
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:16 am
[quote="goodmorning"]Not sure what speaking Ivrit has to do with Moshiach coming either. Maybe we will all revert to speaking Lashon HaKodesh. Maybe we will go back to Aramaic (which used to be used for daily conversation so as not to defile Lashon HaKodesh with mundane speech). I have the feeling that if Hashem can manage to gather us from all the corners of this earth and bring us to E"Y, He can help us get over the language barrier.[/qeuote

We come from very different worlds.
Maybe Hashem's way of gathering us from the four corners of the earth was by facilitating the invention of the airplane and then interfering in history to create a Jewish state.

I'm guessing that your ancestors made an effort to learn English so they could function in a new land. So why is it crazy to think that you (general, not you in particular) should learn Hebrew to function among fellow Jews? And by the way, Jews most certainly did speak Hebrew as an everyday language for a very long time. The rise of Aramaic has nothing to do with protecting the kedusha of Hebrew
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:21 am
Sanguine wrote:
changed!


Thank you.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:24 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Sanguine, did you see a mass exodus from america when 9/11 happened? No. Yes, families did come, but en mass? Nope, not at all. Antisemitism is not the same as the holocaust, thank Gd. Im not disagreeing with you per say, but I see the other side as well.


People didn't perceive 9-11 as anti-Jew as much as anti-America. And there hasn't been the same time of waves of anti-semitism here as in Europe, r"l. (Rachman l'tzlan re Europe, not that there hasn't been anti-semitism here.)
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:36 am
5mom wrote:
goodmorning wrote:
Not sure what speaking Ivrit has to do with Moshiach coming either. Maybe we will all revert to speaking Lashon HaKodesh. Maybe we will go back to Aramaic (which used to be used for daily conversation so as not to defile Lashon HaKodesh with mundane speech). I have the feeling that if Hashem can manage to gather us from all the corners of this earth and bring us to E"Y, He can help us get over the language barrier.


We come from very different worlds.
Maybe Hashem's way of gathering us from the four corners of the earth was by facilitating the invention of the airplane and then interfering in history to create a Jewish state.

Maybe.

It seems to me that kibutz galuyos comes together with Moshiach's arrival (and is his responsibility), according to Rambam Hilchos Melochim 11:1
Quote:

המלך המשיח עתיד לעמוד, ולהחזיר מלכות בית דויד ליושנה הממשלה הראשונה, ובונה מקדש, ומקבץ נדחי ישראל. וחוזרין כל המשפטים בימיו, כשהיו מקודם: מקריבין קרבנות, ועושין שמיטין ויובלות ככל מצותן האמורה בתורה.


but who knows?

Quote:

I'm guessing that your ancestors made an effort to learn English so they could function in a new land. So why is it crazy to think that you (general, not you in particular) should learn Hebrew to function among fellow Jews? And by the way, Jews most certainly did speak Hebrew as an everyday language for a very long time. The rise of Aramaic has nothing to do with protecting the kedusha of Hebrew


I think it is very important to be able to communicate with fellow Jews from other countries, and am in full support of learning Hebrew (or Yiddish or any other language) to be able to facilitate that. I also think that learning Hebrew has inherent value in being able to learn and understand tefillos and Tanach and our entire plethora of sifrei kodesh.

What I was disputing was the idea that the people who view Ivrit as a language barrier to them living in Israel today will necessarily have the same language barrier in the time of Moshiach. I see no reason to believe that we will necessarily continue to speak in Ivrit when Moshiach comes.
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:48 am
goodmorning wrote:
. I see no reason to believe that we will necessarily continue to speak in Ivrit when Moshiach comes.


Why not?
It seems that there's a tendency in the frum world to assume that human activity doesnt matter. If the Jewish people have revived the Hebrew language and a Jewish state why not consider that that may be the ratzon haborei?
Gotta go light candles now, good shabbos. (Or shabbat shalom if you prefer.)
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 8:50 am
Ivrit is a modern language. Almost every single Jew who comes back with techiyat hameitim will not speak ivrit, unless they're taking language classes up there.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 9:00 am
5mom wrote:
Why not?
It seems that there's a tendency in the frum world to assume that human activity doesnt matter. If the Jewish people have revived the Hebrew language and a Jewish state why not consider that that may be the ratzon haborei?
Gotta go light candles now, good shabbos. (Or shabbat shalom if you prefer.)


Because the state is not run according to Halacha.
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 11:38 am
5mom wrote:
Why not?
It seems that there's a tendency in the frum world to assume that human activity doesnt matter. If the Jewish people have revived the Hebrew language and a Jewish state why not consider that that may be the ratzon haborei?
Gotta go light candles now, good shabbos. (Or shabbat shalom if you prefer.)


Of course human activity matters. But that doesn't mean that all human activity reflects Hashem's approval. Human activity has caused a whole lot of good, neutral, and very bad situations.

Moreover, there is quite a leap in your logic. Assuming that you accept that the fact that the State of Israel exists today means that Hashem approves of it [which it may or may not], who says that it has any bearing on yemos haMoshiach? Maybe Hashem wants us to have a Jewish state and a Hebrew language today, but when Moshiach comes, He will want us to have a different form of Jewish state and a different form of Hebrew language?

To be very clear, all that I am arguing is that it is possible that the reasons that people have for not wanting to make aliya today, will no longer apply when Moshiach comes. I am not weighing in on whether or not the reasons for not making aliya are valid reasons.
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