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Anti-semitism - the reason to come on Aliya
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sneakermom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 12:58 pm
We live to serve Hashem and make light in the world. Some of us are destined to do that in Eretz Yisroel and others bring light to the rest of the world. Together, through our maisim tovim we are working to bring Moshiach. May it come soon in our time. Without any more pain or loss.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 05 2014, 1:27 pm
goodmorning wrote:
I think it is very important to be able to communicate with fellow Jews from other countries, and am in full support of learning Hebrew (or Yiddish or any other language) to be able to facilitate that. I also think that learning Hebrew has inherent value in being able to learn and understand tefillos and Tanach and our entire plethora of sifrei kodesh.

What I was disputing was the idea that the people who view Ivrit as a language barrier to them living in Israel today will necessarily have the same language barrier in the time of Moshiach. I see no reason to believe that we will necessarily continue to speak in Ivrit when Moshiach comes.


Hm. I know Rabbi Reisman's said that the rebuilding of E"Y we're seeing now might be the beginning of some nevuos. (I'm pretty sure I remember such sentiments. Still, I doubt he sees the state as aschalta d'geulah, as passionate a modern day chovev Tziyon in the truest sense he is.) And there's something else I want to look at inside before suggesting.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 06 2014, 11:22 am
PinkFridge wrote:
Hm. I know Rabbi Reisman's said that the rebuilding of E"Y we're seeing now might be the beginning of some nevuos. (I'm pretty sure I remember such sentiments. Still, I doubt he sees the state as aschalta d'geulah, as passionate a modern day chovev Tziyon in the truest sense he is.) And there's something else I want to look at inside before suggesting.
But there are some big name rabbanim out there that do see the state of Israel as atchalta d'geulah! (personally I get chills just thinking about it that way Smile )
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 06 2014, 11:51 am
Now what I don't understand about religious Jews who don't live in Israel... Yes, I'm sorry but I'm talking about the chareidim in Chu"l who are so makpid to do every mitzva and chumra (and their Rabbanim who decide for them) (actually, I'm not talking just chareidm - anyone who is very makpid) - Whether or not you believe in the State of Israel, the land is still Kadosh. Now Jews even own the land. The Chareidim in Israel recognize that. They take trumot and maserot (as does DL - or MO) and now for Shmitta in Israel we don't buy fruits and vegetables from Jewish owned land. Everything is hefker so the Rabbanim work out a way so that we don't starve this year and the farmers can live too. Many Chareidim actually buy fruits and vegetables from Arab owned land. (or maybe they buy from Jordan - the point is that Eretz Yisrael is Kadosh even before Moshiach comes even if you're not a Zionist)

So here's my question - All these extra mitzvot that we all do living here (whether or not you believe in the state of Israel), how are those big gedolim in chu"l passing up this opportunity for him and his followers to do them?

Living in a Yishuv where everyone has gardens and fruit trees (orla another mitzva Smile ) - So our shmitta sheur also covers what to do (or not do) with your garden for the year. So our Rav says - You know we can do all the mitzvot right here - we should each plant wheat in our yards and then we can cut them and leave the leket and peah... (thank-you very much - Shmitta is hard enough Rolling Eyes )


So here's my question - All these extra mitzvot that we all do living here (whether or not you believe in the state of Israel), how are those big gedolim in chu"l passing up this opportunity for him and his followers to do them?

ETA - Why am I saying specifically Chareidim? Why don't MO Rabbanim come? (they even believe in the state) - The difference is that if the chareidi Rabbaim said to come their whole kehilla would come. MO wouldn't.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 06 2014, 3:52 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
Ivrit is a modern language. Almost every single Jew who comes back with techiyat hameitim will not speak ivrit, unless they're taking language classes up there.

I have a feeling the modern and biblical Hebrew speakers will be able to understand one another once we figure out the other's accent, even if the order of the words seems a bit strange.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 06 2014, 8:15 pm
Sanguine wrote:
Now what I don't understand about religious Jews who don't live in Israel... Yes, I'm sorry but I'm talking about the chareidim in Chu"l who are so makpid to do every mitzva and chumra (and their Rabbanim who decide for them) (actually, I'm not talking just chareidm - anyone who is very makpid) - Whether or not you believe in the State of Israel, the land is still Kadosh. Now Jews even own the land. The Chareidim in Israel recognize that. They take trumot and maserot (as does DL - or MO) and now for Shmitta in Israel we don't buy fruits and vegetables from Jewish owned land. Everything is hefker so the Rabbanim work out a way so that we don't starve this year and the farmers can live too. Many Chareidim actually buy fruits and vegetables from Arab owned land. (or maybe they buy from Jordan - the point is that Eretz Yisrael is Kadosh even before Moshiach comes even if you're not a Zionist)

So here's my question - All these extra mitzvot that we all do living here (whether or not you believe in the state of Israel), how are those big gedolim in chu"l passing up this opportunity for him and his followers to do them?

Living in a Yishuv where everyone has gardens and fruit trees (orla another mitzva Smile ) - So our shmitta sheur also covers what to do (or not do) with your garden for the year. So our Rav says - You know we can do all the mitzvot right here - we should each plant wheat in our yards and then we can cut them and leave the leket and peah... (thank-you very much - Shmitta is hard enough Rolling Eyes )


So here's my question - All these extra mitzvot that we all do living here (whether or not you believe in the state of Israel), how are those big gedolim in chu"l passing up this opportunity for him and his followers to do them?

ETA - Why am I saying specifically Chareidim? Why don't MO Rabbanim come? (they even believe in the state) - The difference is that if the chareidi Rabbaim said to come their whole kehilla would come. MO wouldn't.


Because we don't feel that we are Mechuev in those other Mitzvos if Moshiach isn't here. Simple as that!

Look, if E"Y was the ideal place for us to live, I would be there as soon as I could. But for me, in my situation, it is not the place to live now. As long as Moshiach isn't here, I can live a life putting my full efforts and kedusha in a places that isn't E"Y.

And yes, the fact that the State does not run according to Halacha is indeed a big issue and one that personally I would feel oxymoronic living in a place where it is supposedly Jewish, but does not run according to Halacha. At least here in the states when you see Chillul Shabbos, there is a strong possibility that the person isn't Jewish. In E"Y not so much!
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 06 2014, 8:38 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Hm. I know Rabbi Reisman's said that the rebuilding of E"Y we're seeing now might be the beginning of some nevuos. (I'm pretty sure I remember such sentiments. Still, I doubt he sees the state as aschalta d'geulah, as passionate a modern day chovev Tziyon in the truest sense he is.) And there's something else I want to look at inside before suggesting.


Is this in response to what I said?

I didn't comment as to whether the State is good or bad, or even as to whether it is aschalta d'geulah. Maybe it is, for all I know.

All that I said is that the fact that Ivrit is spoken now in Israel does not necessarily mean that we will continue to speak Ivrit in E"Y after Moshiach's arrival.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 12:34 am
out-of-towner wrote:
Because we don't feel that we are Mechuev in those other Mitzvos if Moshiach isn't here. Simple as that!

Look, if E"Y was the ideal place for us to live, I would be there as soon as I could. But for me, in my situation, it is not the place to live now. As long as Moshiach isn't here, I can live a life putting my full efforts and kedusha in a places that isn't E"Y.

And yes, the fact that the State does not run according to Halacha is indeed a big issue and one that personally I would feel oxymoronic living in a place where it is supposedly Jewish, but does not run according to Halacha. At least here in the states when you see Chillul Shabbos, there is a strong possibility that the person isn't Jewish. In E"Y not so much!
That's why I brought up that the Chareidim that live in EY do observe all the halachot of the keduasha of EY. They may not hold by the Rabbanot's maaserot on vegetables - They take their own. They won't hold by the rabbanut Heter Mechira for Shmitta but they certainly don't buy fruits and vegetables grown in EY as they do the whole year. Chareidim flock to the kotel, kever Rachel, Maarat Hamachpela and all the kevrei Tzadikim (I live between kever Binyamin and kever Yosef). We have birchat Kohenim every morning. There is no Yom Tov sheini shel galuyot here. There is so much Kedusha in Eretz Yisrael no matter whose hands it's in.

"out-of-towner", I get the feeling that you're from one of these real "anti" chassidus' (maybe Neturai karta), so I'm wasting my time if I think I would ever convince you, but since you posted publicly, I must answer publicly too. The state of Israel does not run Halachically. Maybe it has more of a Chabad views where every Jew is a Jew and they are welcomed however they are. If Israel was run halachically it would chase away a lot of Jews. Such a large percentage of Jews in Israel are traditional - really a very very large percentage. If the state was run halachically they would all leave Israel and totally assimilate. Is that better? Moshiach isn't here yet but the state is keeping millions of Jewish souls Jewish.

Just a few examples for you (since I'm sure you don't know much about the JEWISH state). All kadosh places are under the control of the religious ministry. They're all available for you to go to for tfillot, with proper mechitzot. All Jewish holidays are the state's holidays. Any child in Israel, no matter how secular, learns about all the chagim - That's when their vacation is given from school. Places of work are closed for chagim - many for chol HaMoed too. This Shmitta year, the gov't actually sells the land of Israel to Arabs for the year to allow the heter for eating fruits and vegetables this year (not everyone holds by that but many many orthodox people do - and it actually forces secular Jews to do it too since all the major supermarkets only sell that). On Yom kippur the entire country is closed. Imagine how kadosh the day is. cars are forbidden from driving on any road in the entire country. All the borders are closed for the entire day (no airplanes, no ships, no driving to Jordan). Now I'm not kidding you - the secular kids love YK cause they take out their bikes and ride all over the empty highways that day. The parents rent videos so they'll have something to watch on this day at home with no TV (everything is shut), but everyone knows it's YK. It's amazing how many secular Jews will tell you they're fasting. They'll show up in shuls for Yizkor and shofar blowing at the end. Continuing... Pesach it is against the law for stores to sell bread and chametz. Imagine that - Such a go-yish country telling all their "go-yim" that they're going to be forced to eat matza for a week!! I can go on and on. On Tisha B'av all restaurants and places of entertainment are closed. All companies give holiday gifts for Rosh HaShana and Pesach. Every simple store is having holiday sales (for
our holidays. The whole country celebrates Chol Hamoed with family trips... Now here's another one for you - Israel independence day (I know - sadder than Tisha B'av) is of course the major national holiday here. Well the day before is memorial day which starts at night with ceremonies throughout the country. Well if that night is Motzei Shabbat, for fear of causing Chillul Shabbat, the entire Independence Day celebrations are pushed off one day so that the ceremonies are first on Sunday night!! That's right - This secular state pushes off independence day to be sure to avoid chillul Shabbat.

Israel is not a Halachic state (only Islamic states force religious rules on their people). Judaism is the religion of the state. Even the army is Kosher (commanded by the army) and doesn't do any unnecessary actions or training on Shabbat.

"out-of-towner", You obviously believe that any Jew that doesn't "belong to your shul" isn't really a Jew and doesn't count but here we are all Jews. I know that certain Hassidic sects won't talk to or mix with others too. Chareidi Ashkenaim and Sfardim can't even get together on everything. So I'm asking you - If Israel was a halachic state, who would make the rules? Israel may not be ideal but it's a home for every Jew to practice religion as they want with a strong reminder for all those "not-yet frum" Jews of what their heritage is.

So, "out-of-towner", bring this to your Rav (since I know you're just spewing forth what you were told) and ask him why sanguine is keeping more mitzvot than him. If you want, you can consider mitzvot of EY as Chinuch. Why do your pre-bar-mitzva children keep all the mitzvot? Ask your rav why you shouldn't live pre-moshiach chinuch. I'm sorry but Ir HaKodesh is here, not in Lakewood or Kiryas Yoel... Hashem gave us Eretz Yisrael and His kedusha is always here and the Chareidim that live here recognize that too.


Last edited by Sanguine on Sun, Sep 07 2014, 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 1:07 am
Since I've already made up my mind to make Aliya (IYH soon!) I skimmed most of the posts in this thread.

Politics and logistics aside, years ago I had a therapist who gave me some great advice. The only way to make a real change is to be motivated toward something. If you're just motivated to get away from something, the change will be infinitely harder to keep in effect.

Work to acquire something you really want, not to just get away from something you don't want. If you move to Israel just to get away from a negative, you'll just find different negatives to deal with over there. If you move because you feel it is a positive thing in your life (for whatever reason), then not only will you find more positive things, but the negatives that will also certainly be there won't bother you nearly as much.
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freidasima




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 2:04 am
I'm really surprised it bothers some people that others don't live in EY...mayleh, if those posters were charedi I would get it but MO/DL are supposed to be "live and let live"...so why don't they get that some religious Jews use different interpretations vis a vis the chiyuv to make aliyah and live in EY and do the mitzvos hateluyos ba'aretz?

After all one could say that it is a mitzva to give a get so yalla, let's all get divorced and then we have that mitzva. And so on. But there is a system that one buys into saying that if one isn't in that situation milechaschila one doesn't have to put onesself in that situation even if doing so is a mitzva, in order to do additonal mitzvos that are "tolui" ("dependent on") being in that situation.

So if one holds that one doesn't make aliyah until moshiach because of their rov's interpretations, then they also don't have to do it in order to do the extra mitzvos.

Anyhow I'm all for live and let live in this case, you want to come, kim gezin arayn, wonderful! And if you don't want to, just don't do or say anything that would hurt the lives of those living here (meaning don't be vocally anti Israel or whatever)...just live your lives, follow your rabbonim and live a good Jewish life wherever you are! Fertig.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 2:16 am
freidasima wrote:
I'm really surprised it bothers some people that others don't live in EY...mayleh, if those posters were charedi I would get it but MO/DL are supposed to be "live and let live"...so why don't they get that some religious Jews use different interpretations vis a vis the chiyuv to make aliyah and live in EY and do the mitzvos hateluyos ba'aretz?

After all one could say that it is a mitzva to give a get so yalla, let's all get divorced and then we have that mitzva. And so on. But there is a system that one buys into saying that if one isn't in that situation milechaschila one doesn't have to put onesself in that situation even if doing so is a mitzva, in order to do additonal mitzvos that are "tolui" ("dependent on") being in that situation.

So if one holds that one doesn't make aliyah until moshiach because of their rov's interpretations, then they also don't have to do it in order to do the extra mitzvos.

Anyhow I'm all for live and let live in this case, you want to come, kim gezin arayn, wonderful! And if you don't want to, just don't do or say anything that would hurt the lives of those living here (meaning don't be vocally anti Israel or whatever)...just live your lives, follow your rabbonim and live a good Jewish life wherever you are! Fertig.


"Liking" isn't enough. Love this!
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 2:50 am
FS - I think I disagree with you (though I never fully understand you)
So we only have to concern ourselves with the Lo TaAsehs? Just don't ever put yourself in a situation where you might actually do an extra mitzva? I'm not talking about individual people. I'm talking about the whole community being told - Just keep away from EY or you'll be "stuck" with so many extra mitzvot. What happened to the idea of Hidur Mitzva? We always go and look for ways to do extra. So why are extremely frum people (the leaders) trying so hard to avoid all the Mitzvot HaTluyot BaAretz? For 2,000 years we prayed for Yerushalayim. Well now the Kotel is safely available for all Jews. Why isn't everyone running to touch it? (The 6 day war wasn't a nes MiShamayim?) Why isn't everyone running to pray at Maarat HaMachpela? Why isn't everyone embracing the idea of Shmitta? Kedushat Shviit. Hashem is inviting us to partake at his "Shabbat table". The mitzva is here - just waiting to be done.

Disagree with the govenment, but the Kedusha is always here. I really don't understand how these great gedolim aren't running here to partake in the Kedusha now that it's not a Sakana Nefesh for a Jew to be here.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 6:03 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
But there are some big name rabbanim out there that do see the state of Israel as atchalta d'geulah! (personally I get chills just thinking about it that way Smile )


Not that there's anything wrong with that! Tongue Out
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 6:11 am
goodmorning wrote:
Is this in response to what I said?

I didn't comment as to whether the State is good or bad, or even as to whether it is aschalta d'geulah. Maybe it is, for all I know.

All that I said is that the fact that Ivrit is spoken now in Israel does not necessarily mean that we will continue to speak Ivrit in E"Y after Moshiach's arrival.


I'm scratching my head. At myself embarrassed It could be I was thinking this in response to a longer post with other quotes and I was addressing one of those but I can't figure out my train of thought now.

Oh, and re those of us still in chu"l: I remember reading about a doctor somewhere who wanted to make aliyah and a major Israeli gadol told him to stay in his city because his work there was important. And I read an article recently about major philanthropists and one was asked why he doesn't just retire and learn. He said that he'd love to but he's able to do so much good work with te money he makes and that's what his avodah is now, even at the cost of his personal growth. People have all sorts of cheshbonos for the courses they chart, generally very, very valid.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 7:42 am
Sanguine wrote:
FS - I think I disagree with you (though I never fully understand you)
So we only have to concern ourselves with the Lo TaAsehs? Just don't ever put yourself in a situation where you might actually do an extra mitzva? I'm not talking about individual people. I'm talking about the whole community being told - Just keep away from EY or you'll be "stuck" with so many extra mitzvot. What happened to the idea of Hidur Mitzva? We always go and look for ways to do extra. So why are extremely frum people (the leaders) trying so hard to avoid all the Mitzvot HaTluyot BaAretz? For 2,000 years we prayed for Yerushalayim. Well now the Kotel is safely available for all Jews. Why isn't everyone running to touch it? (The 6 day war wasn't a nes MiShamayim?) Why isn't everyone running to pray at Maarat HaMachpela? Why isn't everyone embracing the idea of Shmitta? Kedushat Shviit. Hashem is inviting us to partake at his "Shabbat table". The mitzva is here - just waiting to be done.

Disagree with the govenment, but the Kedusha is always here. I really don't understand how these great gedolim aren't running here to partake in the Kedusha now that it's not a Sakana Nefesh for a Jew to be here.


Really? It's not Sakanas Nefashos? When practically the entire world has said that they want Israel wiped off the map?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't live there, but I do understand why certain people wouldn't want to. I have OCD and anxiety and I litterally would have gone nuts during this summer's war had I not lived where I live.

We are all in the hands of HK"BH, and no one else. Yes, there is a certain amount of Sakana to living in E"Y. There may also be an extra element of protection, but I don't think that the two negate each other.

Anon cuz of the OCD bit.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 8:18 am
amother wrote:
Really? It's not Sakanas Nefashos? When practically the entire world has said that they want Israel wiped off the map?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't live there, but I do understand why certain people wouldn't want to. I have OCD and anxiety and I litterally would have gone nuts during this summer's war had I not lived where I live.

We are all in the hands of HK"BH, and no one else. Yes, there is a certain amount of Sakana to living in E"Y. There may also be an extra element of protection, but I don't think that the two negate each other.

Anon cuz of the OCD bit.

My friend in safe NY was a wreck after 9/11. If someone has personal problems (OCD) that's different. I'm not saying people didn't have a hard time doing the war but look at how many people were hurt from rockets. As all the anti-semitism was building up around the world, everyone said they feel the safest in Israel. No question here who the police and army are protecting.

Anyway, what I meant was that in the old days it was dangerous to be in Israel. Now it's a modern state with a Jewish police force and army. Danger isn't the reason why people don't want to be here. That's why I still don't understand why all the Gedolim in chu"l aren't running here to "touch the kotel" and to live in Eretz HaKodesh where you can do so many more mitzvot.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 8:27 am
Sanguine wrote:
That's why I brought up that the Chareidim that live in EY do observe all the halachot of the keduasha of EY. They may not hold by the Rabbanot's maaserot on vegetables - They take their own. They won't hold by the rabbanut Heter Mechira for Shmitta but they certainly don't buy fruits and vegetables grown in EY as they do the whole year. Chareidim flock to the kotel, kever Rachel, Maarat Hamachpela and all the kevrei Tzadikim (I live between kever Binyamin and kever Yosef). We have birchat Kohenim every morning. There is no Yom Tov sheini shel galuyot here. There is so much Kedusha in Eretz Yisrael no matter whose hands it's in.

"out-of-towner", I get the feeling that you're from one of these real "anti" chassidus' (maybe Neturai karta), so I'm wasting my time if I think I would ever convince you, but since you posted publicly, I must answer publicly too. The state of Israel does not run Halachically. Maybe it has more of a Chabad views where every Jew is a Jew and they are welcomed however they are. If Israel was run halachically it would chase away a lot of Jews. Such a large percentage of Jews in Israel are traditional - really a very very large percentage. If the state was run halachically they would all leave Israel and totally assimilate. Is that better? Moshiach isn't here yet but the state is keeping millions of Jewish souls Jewish.

Just a few examples for you (since I'm sure you don't know much about the JEWISH state). All kadosh places are under the control of the religious ministry. They're all available for you to go to for tfillot, with proper mechitzot. All Jewish holidays are the state's holidays. Any child in Israel, no matter how secular, learns about all the chagim - That's when their vacation is given from school. Places of work are closed for chagim - many for chol HaMoed too. This Shmitta year, the gov't actually sells the land of Israel to Arabs for the year to allow the heter for eating fruits and vegetables this year (not everyone holds by that but many many orthodox people do - and it actually forces secular Jews to do it too since all the major supermarkets only sell that). On Yom kippur the entire country is closed. Imagine how kadosh the day is. cars are forbidden from driving on any road in the entire country. All the borders are closed for the entire day (no airplanes, no ships, no driving to Jordan). Now I'm not kidding you - the secular kids love YK cause they take out their bikes and ride all over the empty highways that day. The parents rent videos so they'll have something to watch on this day at home with no TV (everything is shut), but everyone knows it's YK. It's amazing how many secular Jews will tell you they're fasting. They'll show up in shuls for Yizkor and shofar blowing at the end. Continuing... Pesach it is against the law for stores to sell bread and chametz. Imagine that - Such a go-yish country telling all their "go-yim" that they're going to be forced to eat matza for a week!! I can go on and on. On Tisha B'av all restaurants and places of entertainment are closed. All companies give holiday gifts for Rosh HaShana and Pesach. Every simple store is having holiday sales (for
our holidays. The whole country celebrates Chol Hamoed with family trips... Now here's another one for you - Israel independence day (I know - sadder than Tisha B'av) is of course the major national holiday here. Well the day before is memorial day which starts at night with ceremonies throughout the country. Well if that night is Motzei Shabbat, for fear of causing Chillul Shabbat, the entire Independence Day celebrations are pushed off one day so that the ceremonies are first on Sunday night!! That's right - This secular state pushes off independence day to be sure to avoid chillul Shabbat.

Israel is not a Halachic state (only Islamic states force religious rules on their people). Judaism is the religion of the state. Even the army is Kosher (commanded by the army) and doesn't do any unnecessary actions or training on Shabbat.

"out-of-towner", You obviously believe that any Jew that doesn't "belong to your shul" isn't really a Jew and doesn't count but here we are all Jews. I know that certain Hassidic sects won't talk to or mix with others too. Chareidi Ashkenaim and Sfardim can't even get together on everything. So I'm asking you - If Israel was a halachic state, who would make the rules? Israel may not be ideal but it's a home for every Jew to practice religion as they want with a strong reminder for all those "not-yet frum" Jews of what their heritage is.

So, "out-of-towner", bring this to your Rav (since I know you're just spewing forth what you were told) and ask him why sanguine is keeping more mitzvot than him. If you want, you can consider mitzvot of EY as Chinuch. Why do your pre-bar-mitzva children keep all the mitzvot? Ask your rav why you shouldn't live pre-moshiach chinuch. I'm sorry but Ir HaKodesh is here, not in Lakewood or Kiryas Yoel... Hashem gave us Eretz Yisrael and His kedusha is always here and the Chareidim that live here recognize that too.


WOW was that post judgmental! Especially since I have made it quite clear on this site exactly where I come from.

Let's enlighten you to my story! I grew up in practically a Jewish hick town. My parents were in the Klei Kodesh field, and are actually quite open minded. I went to an MO school which had kids from all walks of life from almost Yeshivish to reform. I was pretty Yeshivish and was on the Yeshvisih derech, but I was always extremely respectful of anyone else. In fact, some of my best friends are MO. I don't agree with their ideology and they don't agree with mine, but we have tremendous mutual respect.

When I started Shidduchim, I was looking for a Yeshivish guy who would eventually go to work. But I needed someone who was open minded, who would accept where I came from and embrace my parents and the community where I grew up. When I was redd to a guy who called himself Chassidush (through SYAS/YUConnects mind you), I did not want to date him. I was so strait laced and Litvish that I could not deal with someone who was Chassidush, I mean my father to this day doesn't have a bread and here was a guy who had the beard, long Payos, and wore a Bekeshe.

So my DH's story. Also grew up an an OOT community, and his parents are LWMO. went to MO schools through high school (I only went through elementary school), and from his Bar Mitzva was interested in becoming more Frum. His parents daven in Chabad shul so Chabad was the obvious choice for him. He went to a Chabad Yeshiva after high school and then realized that while he loved Chabad Chassidus, the Chbad community wasn't for him. It was then that he found out about his family's Chassidush roots and started to find out about them (THIS is where the Chassidush Yichus comes in). After that year, my DH went to YU for a semester (yes, YU!) realized it wasn't for him, and found a Yeshiva that would take him while he finished up his degree, which B"H he managed to do. I do not want to say which Yeshiva it is, but it is a Yeshiva which is not considered mainstraim Yeshivish in the Yeshivish world. Ideologically we consider ourselves Yeshivish, except that my husband wears the Chassidush Levush and studies Chassidus.

We do not live in Lakewood, or KJ, or even Boro Park. And we do not intend to live there. In fact, as soon as we can leave where we are now, we intend to move OOT, prhaps even to DH's hometown. We want a place where are kids will grow up proud of who they are, and proud to be different.

About Israel. DH and I desperately would love to live there. But with the kind of Hashkafos that we want to give our kids, the Israeli Charedi community is not for us. I firmly believe that it is indeed possible to raise Eherlach Yarei Shamayim in CHU"L. I grew up knowing that I have to make a Kiddush Hashem wherever I go because I look like a Jew and I will come in contact with people who have never before seen a Jew. I want my kids to grow up with that understanding too!

And about Zionism. I actually have a strong love for E"Y. Spent two years in sem there and left only when it was clear that my place was in CHU"L. Note that I said the land and not the state. Yes, I do not believe in a state that doesn't run completely according to Halacha. So do I really want to make Aliya and take money and benefits (which everyone takes, Chareidi or not) from a government that I don't believe in? I think that you would call me a hypocrite if I did! So I am choosing not to. I will IY"H come to visit when I can, support my brethren there and Daven for the people there. But living there is not practical for me.

Another matter, my career and my DH's. I am going into a field that I love and can truly make a difference in people's lives. I would not be able to make that same career happen in E"Y. So I am staying put. My DH would not be able to make it the same way he would in E"Y, so we are staying put.

You say that I am judgmental and do not think of anyone not in my community to be Jewish? Quite the opposite. I have my family who comes from all walks of life, from barely affiliated to ultra Yeshivish. My MIL wears pants and does not cover her hair. My grandfather in law is a die-hearted Zionist who isn't frum (perhaps this is why my DH is so anti). I look like a regular Yeshivish woman. No covering over my Sheitel, I do not shave my head. But I do not believe in the VALIDITY of the state of Israel even though I do acknowledge that it exists. I am by far not Neturei Karta, C"V. I actually strongly disagree with with what today's Neturei Karta is doing. I do not believe the being in E"Y is "Reshit Smichat Gulatynu" (and you know how I know that term? I grew up saying it in Shul. And I know Hatikva too). I believe that the Geula is coming, but not that the Jews need to be in E"Y for it to come.

But I have respect for every Jew. I love every Jew. I believe in what I believe in and live my life the best way I see fit, but my goal in life is to make sure that every Jew I come in contact with feels that I love them, no matter how much I disagree with them. I am not some narrow-minded woman from a sheltered community, I have been many places in my life and dealt with many, many different types of people. Loving and respecting everyone as a person is not synonymous with not having my own opinion.

So I think Sangune, that a BIG apology to me is in order. Because this is by far not the first time I have posted my story on this site, and if you are going to be making judgments about me, at least look at my post history first. Who is the judgmental one here?
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amother


 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 9:34 am
Quote:
As all the anti-semitism was building up around the world, everyone said they feel the safest in Israel.


And those who left, or refuse to come, feel the opposite.
Can't you respect?
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 9:40 am
out-of-towner wrote:
So I think Sangune, that a BIG apology to me is in order. Because this is by far not the first time I have posted my story on this site, and if you are going to be making judgments about me, at least look at my post history first. Who is the judgmental one here?

I am sorry if I offended you but to tell you the truth I have no idea what your history is and I wasn't responding to your personal history. I was responding to your post.

Anyway, maybe you're not the only on who got the wrong idea. I'm not judging people or attacking people. I'm really trying to understand why all the Gedolim in Chu"l don't want to just run and touch the Kotel. Why they don't want to daven 3 times a day at the Kotel. It's such a zchut t be able to visit all the Kadosh places in Eretz Yisrael. It's such a zchut to own land in Eretz Yisrael and even my little nectarine tree waited 3 years Orla till I ate the fruit. We take all Trumot and Maaserot from what we grow. Now during Shmita, I can't wait to go pick my neighbor's oranges which will have Keduasht Shviit.

That's my question. Not Why aren't you here? Maybe it's too hot for you here... Doesn't matter. Like you say,
Quote:
DH and I desperately would love to live there. But with the kind of Hashkafos that we want to give our kids, the Israeli Charedi community is not for us
. all of that is missing cause the Chareidi leaders insist on staying in Chu"l. I want to understand why the Gedolim are so content saying this is Galut when Eretz Yisrael is always Kadosh and now it's available to every Jew. If they came all their followers will come too. They will set up their communities with the schools they want and enough will even have power in the Gov't as Shas has had in the past. EY will always be the main concentration of Jews. So why would the Chareidi Gedolim not want to be here? Israel is a democracy. Let them bring all their followers and they will control the government. I just don't understand what they're afraid of. So afraid, that these Gedolai Torah are willing to pass on the chance for them and their followers to live in Eretz HaKodesh. Israel isn't in enemy hands. Bring on the large groups and you will influence.

That's what I'm saying. I'm not expecting individual people to come. As you said there's no community for you or schools for your children. But explain why all the Chareidi Gedolim aren't coming here and making Israel how they want it to be.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 07 2014, 12:32 pm
Sanguine wrote:
My friend in safe NY was a wreck after 9/11. If someone has personal problems (OCD) that's different. I'm not saying people didn't have a hard time doing the war but look at how many people were hurt from rockets. As all the anti-semitism was building up around the world, everyone said they feel the safest in Israel. No question here who the police and army are protecting.

Anyway, what I meant was that in the old days it was dangerous to be in Israel. Now it's a modern state with a Jewish police force and army. Danger isn't the reason why people don't want to be here. That's why I still don't understand why all the Gedolim in chu"l aren't running here to "touch the kotel" and to live in Eretz HaKodesh where you can do so many more mitzvot.


For me, I can say libi b'mizrach. As for the rabbanim, and if they all leave who will be here for those of us who are stuck here?

________________

"Even if I never reach Eretz Yisroel, and die here in Russia, just the dream alone of going there makes it worth it to be born" - Yosef Begun, The Underground, p. 147
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