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-> Interesting Discussions
amother
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 Mon, Sep 08 2014, 3:00 pm
| Learning wrote: | | I think because Rosen is a last name that Israelis changed to from names like rosenfeld. It is a modern or secular name that people who came to Israel chose to sound out of the getho. |
I know quite a few frum people with the surname Rosenberg.
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sequoia
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 3:05 pm
When I hear Rosenberg I think of Julius and Ethel 
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tigerwife
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 3:06 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | Not just that, but surnames were not considered all that meaningful to many people.
My paternal grandmother, for example, went by the name of Hershkovic. So in recent talks with her (she has just recently begun to talk about her family and experiences) she told us her father's surname was Gross. So why was she Herskovic? Because her parents did not bother to register their marriage legally until after her birth, so she obtained her mother's surname, not her fathers.
So I asked her -then your mother's surname was Hershkovic?
Well....her mother's father went by the name of Berger. But they also had not registered their marriage at the time of her birth. Her mother, Babba Sara, was previously married to a man named Hershkovic (and the marriage was registered). After he passed away, she remarried Zaida Berger. Since they did not immediately register, her children were given the name of her first husband.
So my grandmother ended up with the surname of a man who is not even her biological ancestor.
Wacky, but apparently no big deal in those days. Everyone in town knew who everyone was.
And my maiden name? That was adapted by a paternal ancestor, back in the days when Maria Theresa Y"SH ruled Austro-Hungary. She passed a law that forbade Jews who were not the oldest in their respective families to marry. Since my ancestor was not the eldest, he obtained a false identity in order to marry and assumed a local name.
Sequoia - my apologies for going off topic here. Just some background on Jewish surnames. |
That was actually really interesting to read.
Another point- some last names have merged over the generations (I think I've heard of Schmidt-Friedman, or something like that), besides for names being shortened.
Still no idea why Goldberg is considered the classic Jewish name- how did that happen?
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freidasima
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 3:17 pm
Goldberg is only classic Jewish in American Jewish culture, not elsewhere, the "gold" part is from the Jews so called connection to money, after all Shylock and all that jazz.
Actually what is a "Jewish" name in one culture is not in another. Many names are indeed of places, others were forced on Jews and are deroggatory names or words as the non Jewish Lords of the area were antisemitic and gave their Jews "ugly" names. Some are traditional double names stemming from a particular family in a particular place such as "Levi-Horowitz" etc. or are bastardized versions of professions. Some are translations of languages and others are names of countries, areas etc. Interesting that originally Jews named "Ashkenazi" were all Sefaradic while there were famous ashkenazic Jewish families with very sefaradi names such as "Alfasi" etc.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 3:22 pm
In some areas, Jews (and non Jews) who were forced to take on a surname (= who didn't have one yet) and had money chose a nice one in the local language. Goldenberg is nice.
Myth: Katzenellenbogen, Dreyfus... are NOT discriminating and/or modern names, but go back to the deep Middle Ages and mean "kohen tzedek of Ellenbogen" and "(from) Treves".
In some cultures, the couple could take on the most prestigious surname... from the husband, wife, grandma lol. In others it was strictly patriarcal. Interetingly some Jews choose to identify as their mother's children (say, Rivkin, Mirels...). I can assure you they were not haskalah...
During the war my father's family Frenchisize (sp??) their German-with-Polish-spelling very Jewish surname. I'm very happy they reverted back to the regular one, after. My maternal grandmother's Sefardic surname was changed alltogether by the Resistance (along with the family's Ladino and Hebrew names) and also bh, reverted back after the war.
. Interesting that originally Jews named "Ashkenazi" were all Sefaradic while there were famous ashkenazic Jewish families with very sefaradi names such as "Alfasi" etc.
Families moved  the ashky in Sefardi land could be called Ashkenazi/Skenazi/Siknazi... and some Sefardim moved to Ashkenazi lands, also. The Horowitz were originally Spanish. (some of?) The Mandel Greek. Some Katz Greek also. Think rebbe Portugal...
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r_ch
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 4:13 pm
| sequoia wrote: | | Well Tenenbaum is Xmas tree... |
Taitelbaum is a date (tree) palm.
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r_ch
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 4:16 pm
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Well, I never noticed that. Names are names and they are equally as frum as not frum.
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Raisin
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 4:18 pm
I've never thought of any surnames as particularly frum sounding. Plenty of secular people with very frum sounding names. In Israel, however, I guess anyone who keeps an eastern european or german surname and doesn't translate it is more likely to be frum, however, I've still met D.L or not frum Israelis with european Jewish surnames.
I know someone called Katzenelebogen. (from a well known Chabad family) But his siblings all either shortened or had a different name entirely, (false papers, etc) proving Chayelles point about surnames not being all that meaningful.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 4:34 pm
| Ruchel wrote: | I have a frei cousin teitelbaum  |
Why the frown? Due to intermarriage it's not uncommon for someone with a so-called Jewish name not to be Jewish.
But I feel like I'm busted. I'll go back to Fridgestein.
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gittelchana
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 4:35 pm
| sequoia wrote: | | Why is it that some Jewish last names are frum and others are more secular? For instance, someone called Paneth is more likely to be ultra-Orthodox, while someone called Rosen is more likely to be reform/traditional. |
The famous Rogachover Gaon was Rav Yosef Rosen 
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 4:38 pm
| PinkFridge wrote: | Why the frown? Due to intermarriage it's not uncommon for someone with a so-called Jewish name not to be Jewish.
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Yup, and it's even sadder. Frei at least can do teshuva... (though zera Israel can convert- but much more complicated). I have a cousin with my name, not Jewish
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imasoftov
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 5:23 pm
| sequoia wrote: | | Well Tenenbaum is Xmas tree... |
It means pine or fir tree. The song "O Tannenbaum" is based on an older folk song that was written before Germans started decorating trees for the holiday that may not be named.
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heidi
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 5:32 pm
Some names are "rabbinishe families"-- Paneth, if I recall correctly is a family name of a chassidic dynasty. As is Teitelbaum, Twersky, Halberstam etc.
So OP, it would stand to reason that many (though certainly not all, unfortunately) of the descendants with that last name would be pretty "frum"
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amother
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 6:11 pm
| heidi wrote: | Some names are "rabbinishe families"-- Paneth, if I recall correctly is a family name of a chassidic dynasty. As is Teitelbaum, Twersky, Halberstam etc.
So OP, it would stand to reason that many (though certainly not all, unfortunately) of the descendants with that last name would be pretty "frum" |
What does Paneth mean, it doesn't sound Jewish at all?
There really is no difference between surnames for frum and non frum Jews. I really don't understand why anyone would think this to be the case?
Jews all over the world really do share a huge combination of names. And sadly, some non Jews are even called Cohen.
But seriously, frum or non frum has NO impact on the surname!
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Frumdoc
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 6:11 pm
Surnames ending with -evitch or -ovsky or similar are from Polish or West Russian origin, although I don't know what they mean.
Many people I know had such names, but they were anglicised when they became citizens of an English speaking country, as it was considered part of naturalisation (not enforced).
I know plenty of yekkish people who are particularly proud of their heritage and are v frum, so I would never generalise that Germanic sounding names are likely to be less frum. I know many non frum "Cohen"s or "Levy"s, I don't think the name gives much of an indication of someone's religious observance.
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amother
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 6:15 pm
| Frumdoc wrote: | Surnames ending with -evitch or -ovsky or similar are from Polish or West Russian origin, although I don't know what they mean.
Many people I know had such names, but they were anglicised when they became citizens of an English speaking country, as it was considered part of naturalisation (not enforced).
I know plenty of yekkish people who are particularly proud of their heritage and are v frum, so I would never generalise that Germanic sounding names are likely to be less frum. I know many non frum "Cohen"s or "Levy"s, I don't think the name gives much of an indication of someone's religious observance. |
Right, my great grandmother's surname was Moskovitch (not sure of spelling?) and she came from Lithuania. The name was anglicised to Morris when they came to the UK.
And yes, know many Cohen's who are not at all religious. Sad. In fact, most Cohen's seem to be secular.
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acemom
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 7:55 pm
Didn't read through all posts so maybe I am repeating what someone already said...
Who considers what names frummer than others? Surnames depend on lots of factors and certain communities have names being more common than others. In a community with lots of Hungarian Yiddish names, for example, a more English or modernized name will stand out. That doesn't make the other names frummer though.
I've worked with someone with no known Jewish ancestry with the same surname as I have. The surname seems to originate from German, but it is a not an uncommon Jewish surname.
Some names are popular due to famous, (very) religious people having had that surname, generations back. People therefore wrongly assume that all people with that surname are either related or religious. Both could be untrue.
On the other hand, if they know or heard about someone with a certain surname that wasn't frum or Jewish at all, they also incorrectly assume the same about all people with the same surname.
Unfortunately, through intermarriage, we can find people who aren't even Jewish having really Jewish sounding surnames. I enjoy checking out Wikipedia when I see a celebrity with a Jewish sounding name, only to find out that they "have Jewish ancestry" through their paternal lineage.
Check this out. I thought it is hilarious.
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sequoia
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Mon, Sep 08 2014, 8:39 pm
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I used to think Levin from Anna Karenina and Eisenstein from Die Fledermaus were Jewish.
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