"We are too Machshiv Torah to homeschool"

amother

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 1:00 pm

This is a vent, but also hopefully an educational post for many imamothers.

Do people realize that the things they say can be heard? And I do mean while we are literally in middle of a conversation, do people realize I can hear them?

I have been homeschooling for quite a while and I am starting to wonder if people are not aware of the concept of reciprocal conversation. Many conversations start with "how is homeschooling going," and then end with very hurtful comments. "How will they ever socialize?" asked three times in the same conversation, after I explained in detail how they socialize, is hurtful. "I could NEVER do it" is hurtful. And the latest zinger from a friend, well I thought she was a friend anyway, really takes the prize, "We are too Machshiv Torah to homeschool."

It has come to the point where I don't bring up homeschooling in conversation unless I have to. I can understand a little resistance to ideas that are different than what people are used to, but then no matter how many times I answer the same repeated questions phrased slightly differently and sometimes the same, I see that the questioner is never going to be satisfied with any answer. I am coming to the conclusion that the questioner is just trying to convince me through rhetorical questioning that homeschooling is wrong.

The latest incident left me really upset, because my friend didn't even ask me about my kids learning. She asked repeatedly about socializing, then finally announced, "We are too machsiv torah to homeschool." I said, excuse me, do you have any idea how my son learns, how much he knows? In fact, Judaic studies is one of the reasons I removed my sons from yeshiva, I wanted more from them in learning than just pointing to the place and chanting. And now, quite a few years later, my sons are ages ahead of their peers in Torah learning. But my friend didn't give me a chance to explain this, she just jumped in after my first sentence asking her if she has any idea how my son learns and said, "I put three sons through yeshiva, I see what goes into it, there is no way you can do that."

So, the conversation was over. In fact, I am sad to say that I walked away and then ignored her for the next hour until we left (we were at the playground with our younger kids.) But I spent the rest of the night coming up with great comebacks a little too late: "I am too machshiv middos to respond to you." was my favorite. I almost felt like texting it to her, but after the few hour lapse, it lost it's zing anyway.

But it is two days later and I am still reeling. And yesterday, after my kids spent half a day in homeschool classes (yes those exist) with great friends, I bumped into another friend at the grocery store with my kids, and I told her we are on our way back from an amazing first day of classes and that tomorrow is a park day with their friends, and she asked me how they will ever socialize.

I have come to the conclusion that parents who DON'T homeschool need to learn to socialize with other adults.

Thank you for letting me vent.

Jeanette

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 1:13 pm

I think it's just something you have to get used to if you do something out of the norm.
Maybe they feel subtly defensive because they know they could never do what you do.
You thought about your decision and it's the right thing for you. Let your friends/relatives/neighbors/acquaintances think what they want.

I don't homeschool but I homebirth and I've had my share of comments.

"Aren't you afraid something might happen to the baby?"
"I could never deal with the mess."
"I could never live with myself if something went wrong."
"I don't see how anyone could go through labor without an epidural."
"I would be dead if I wasn't in the hospital."

I don't try to argue with anyone or change anyone's mind. I also don't try to defend myself. Different strokes for different folks. My choices aren't for everyone, just like everyone else's choices are not for me. If people can't accept it for what it is, I don't see a need to continue discussing the topic.

Scrabble123

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 1:45 pm

I like what an above poster mentioned. When you are doing something not considered "the norm" people will not necessarily understand it, and may have inaccurate assumptions about its flaws/benefits.

While I don't understand how someone is able to provide a solid education homeschooling, I know that there are those who claim they are able to, and I give them the benefit of the doubt. I hope that that comment did not hurt you. It is just a reflection of my good experiences with the school system (although there are bad ones in there too! many of them!), and my ignorance about homeschooling. Still, I believe that if it is decision that you made, you obviously feel capable about what your doing and that the benefits outweigh the cons. I may even disagree with homeschooling in principle, but I'm not going to make a homeschooler feel poorly about their decision because that is not my place to do so (especially if I am not studied enough in the homeschooling field).

I think that a lot of the comments you are upset about really stem from ignorance. Again, you are going to find ignorance whenever you do something that is not common (I mean, you see enough ignorance with commonplace things too!!).

I'm sorry that you feel the way you do, and that you are hurt. I cannot tell you to not hurt, but just to feel confident. You can just respond to a comment like that "I am aware that there are challenges, but I am confident that I am doing what is right for my children and their education." End of discussion. It shouldn't matter to you what doubts or negative comments another has if you are confident in your decision. Just feel that confidence and positivity that you are doing what is right and good for you and your family!!!!! Hatzlacha.

amother

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 1:51 pm

Actually, she is too machshiv doing what everyone else does to homeschool. Doing what everyone else does is very important to some people. Some people are very THREATENED by people who don't do what everyone else does. Sometimes it makes them do really bad things like cheating in business, like ripping off the government, like sweeping seksual abuse under the carpet, like hurting people's feelings. This woman is CLEARLY not machshiv Torah at all. If she was, she would never have tried to put you down because of your choices. I feel bad for her.
You on the other hand might change the world! May you have continued success and nachas from your children. Homeschooling is not for the faint of heart. I admire you!

anon for this

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 1:55 pm

I think that sometimes people don't know what to say when confronted with someone who's made different choices, so they say stupid things instead of just keeping quiet. "I could never homeschool" isn't necessarily an offensive comment, unless said in an offensive way, but the other comments are just rude and cruel. Especially the topic header. It's clear that you spent a lot of time and effort figuring out how to educate your children, so obviously you are prioritizing their Torah.

I experienced this in a very small way when I chose to keep my daughter home with me until she was 4.5 instead of sending her to preschool or playgroup from age 2, as most people I know do. Many of my neighbors expressed astonishment, and one said, "My son is so smart, I couldn't keep him at home". I was a little taken aback, and tempted to say "My daughter is on the slow side, so I think she'll do fine at home" or "My daughter is also smart k"ah, but I'm still smarter than she is so I think she'll be OK". But I didn't. And b"H my daughter's been doing well in school since she started.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that OP. It might be a good idea to rehearse a brief answer to some of the more frequent questions. For example, if people ask, "How will they socialize?", and you've already answered that question, you can say, "We've got that covered". Also, you may find that some people will never "get" homeschooling, and might not appreciate explanations of what you've done and how it works. In those cases, you may be better served by saying, "Oh, we've got that figured out. How's Yossele enjoying school?" or just changing to a different subject altogether.

justcallmeima

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 2:01 pm

amother wrote:

I don't know why this came out as amother the first time I wrote it.

Scrabble123

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 2:04 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

While I don't understand how someone is able to provide a solid education homeschooling

Schools waste so much time. There is a lot of dead waiting time, even in the best schools. Homeschoolers avoid all that and the learning is more intense.

Correct, but isn't a competent, experienced teacher worth something? I'm not going to start arguing if frum schools have competent teachers: some do and many do not. If you live in an area with incompetent teachers, then I guess homeschooling may accomplish a lot, but what about an area with excellent schools with your hashkafa? I guess that parents have to decide on their own regarding their children and their academic goals.

Jeanette

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 2:24 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

I don't know if OP is homeschooling for financial reasons, but the fact is that tuition for 3+ kids can easily exceed what one adult can earn working full time, so if one parent is staying home anyway it makes sense financially for them to homeschool.

The choice to homeschool is not necessarily an indictment of the school system. However, if you can't afford to pay you can't afford to pay.

And if I were living in an area that made me jump through ridiculous hoops just to get my kid into a school, I would definitely be seriously considering homeschool.

anyway this discussion isn't really about the pros and cons of homeschooling, but about people being able to accept the validity of someone else's choice even if it isn't THEIR choice.

iluvy

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 2:31 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

A competent teacher teaches to the middle of the class. I spent most of my years at school reading books under the desk, playing boggle with my friends, drawing cartoons, writing poems, and writing my name over and over in increasingly complex calligraphy, and my parents paid full tuition for 14 years for me to have a classroom in which to do this. I would never homeschool (sorry OP, I don't think that's offensive), and making sure my kids learn the maximum amount possible is not a priority for me, but anyone for whom it is a priority should probably homeschool.

Dawling

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 2:50 pm

I agree with Jeanette's first comment whole heartedly.
whenever you do anything that is out of the norm such as refusing to give your children vaccines or doing a home birth or home schooling or anything like that then you will get all kinds of strange responses. (just check out the imamother responses on those subjects)

personally, I chose not to have an epidural with any of my births and many thought I was crazy, that I won't be able to endure it, etc. They were all very defeating comments and didn't help me one bit.
I also get all kinds of strange comments because I have more kids than the average person in my circle of friends and their ages are very close together.
I think it's great that you're doing homeschooling. I know that I would not be able to even though I definitely see the benefits.
kol hakavod!

chocolate chips

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 4:34 pm

scrabble123 wrote:

While I don't understand how someone is able to provide a solid education homeschooling,

scrabble123 wrote:

Correct, but isn't a competent, experienced teacher worth something?

Wow that is offensive. You are just like the people OP is talking about.

I was partially homeschooled growing up and my siblings are homeschooled now.
When I eventually went to a proper highschool, I was on a much higher level than my classmates in English and all Kodesh subjects. Maths I was basically on the same level and Science I was slightly lower because I didn't have the same equipment available. Higher level. Yes.
Instead of paying someone to tutor their child extra after to school to be able to keep on level with the class, home-schooling parents can teach their child at their own level. Like a tutor gets more ground covered one to one, so does home-schooling.

And who said a mother cannot be a competent teacher? My mother was and still is an AWESOME teacher. Students that she taught in the (very) small school that was around when I was younger still remember her classes. Obviously a parent that takes this upon themselves only does so if they feel they can actually do it.

It is not the easier option by any means it is really hard. I wish I could home-school my kids especially seeing what is going on over here with the schools, teachers/rebbes, forget getting them IN to a school and paying the ridiculous school fees.
And while being home schooled was not always the most amazing fun for me, that was due to other factors in my life (such as living very OOT, not having many if any friends around etc).

OP keep up what you are doing. Keep your head held high. You are amazing for doing this, I really look up to you. Your kids will be fine and besides, you know your kids best. You know if what you are doing and how you are doing it is good for them and no one else can tell you otherwise.
Forget about stupid people with stupid ignorant comments. When your kid graduates top of the class from college they will come running for parenting and educational tips.

ETA: I have a family member who loves to remind me of the fact that I grew up OOT and I didn't go to a "real" school.
One time he said something along the lines of "oh you wouldn't know that you never learnt in school only 'homeschool' " I turned around and said "of course you are right I only learnt manners which obviously you never did".
The rest of the comments I have received from this person and many others are too awful to write without making me cry.

zaq

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 4:37 pm

Completely agree with the point about ppl feeling threatened (why?) by anyone doing anything that varies from the norm in their community. This can be anything from running for public office to making cholent with tofu. In most cases I suspect they feel inadequate, and making derogatory remarks couched as legitimate concerns makes them feel somewhat better about themselves. Smart cookies know that the proof of the pudding is in the eating and let the results speak for themselves.

Also agree 100% that tone of voice is everything, and "I could never do that" can mean "I would never lower myself to do something so declasse" but it can also mean "I wish I had the talent/gumption/smarts/energy/know-how to do that."

Scrabble123

Tue, Sep 09 2014, 4:41 pm

chocolate chips wrote:

Honestly Cholate, I'd like to reread my first post. I'm not at all like those people. Read the first post, and then where I responded to Marina. I was not stating this that all: I was stating where my ignorant understanding is (I EVEN SAID THAT MY UNDERSTANDING IS IGNORANT BECAUSE I'M NOT WELL VERSED IN HOMESCHOOL).

You're post is much more like what OP is talking about. You have come to an assumption without understanding the context. Please reread my posts. Thank you.