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-> Reading Room
kalsee
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 Wed, Sep 10 2014, 1:14 am
How are you enjoying this column?
I just read last week's.
It really spoke to me, in a really deep, internal way.
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rise above
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Wed, Sep 10 2014, 8:41 am
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I am really enjoying it. The quality of the reading is such a pleasure, it transforms the content from what could be preachy and esoteric to almost musical. I wouldn't say I struggle with femininity, however, reading the articles thus far has produced a lot of Ah! moments for me.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Sep 10 2014, 9:03 am
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I also wanted to start a thread about this. I didn't read the most recent, but I really thought the one (was it the first?) regarding women who can be fulfilled through other roles, as depicted in aishes chayil and through the ages, was really a breath of fresh air.
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Scrabble123
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Wed, Sep 10 2014, 9:31 am
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Wow. Well, I didn't read it, but it appears to have taken its name from Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique. I don't quite enjoy it when frum publications do that because it's usually not as a well produced satire, but just as a way to "get a good name/idea."
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questioner
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Wed, Sep 10 2014, 12:01 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | | I also wanted to start a thread about this. I didn't read the most recent, but I really thought the one (was it the first?) regarding women who can be fulfilled through other roles, as depicted in aishes chayil and through the ages, was really a breath of fresh air. |
I liked that article as well. There was a very good line (satirical) about women feeling that they can only be involved in something "outside" the home if a) they feel guilty, or b) it makes them a better mother or c) they need the money ... I forgot the rest of it, but it was very 'real'
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smss
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Wed, Sep 10 2014, 12:48 pm
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I love miriam kosman's articles. I don't get to read them enough because I don't buy the magazines usually- I wish she'd write a book, I'd definitely buy it.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Wed, Sep 10 2014, 5:00 pm
| questioner wrote: | | I liked that article as well. There was a very good line (satirical) about women feeling that they can only be involved in something "outside" the home if a) they feel guilty, or b) it makes them a better mother or c) they need the money ... I forgot the rest of it, but it was very 'real' |
"It's okay for us to do non-motherly things -- in fact, we can even still consider ourselves potential "nashim tzidkaniyos" while doing them as long as:
A. we feel guilty about it.
B. we make sure not to enjoy it.
C. we're doing it only for parnassah.
or, at the very least,
D. we repeat, mantra-like, that the only thing really important to us is our family."
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questioner
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Wed, Sep 10 2014, 5:14 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | "It's okay for us to do non-motherly things -- in fact, we can even still consider ourselves potential "nashim tzidkaniyos" while doing them as long as:
A. we feel guilty about it.
B. we make sure not to enjoy it.
C. we're doing it only for parnassah.
or, at the very least,
D. we repeat, mantra-like, that the only thing really important to us is our family." |
Thanks. I loved that line.
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rkade10
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Thu, Sep 11 2014, 1:53 am
| Quote: | | Wow. Well, I didn't read it, but it appears to have taken its name from Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique. I don't quite enjoy it when frum publications do that because it's usually not as a well produced satire, but just as a way to "get a good name/idea." |
Just the opposite, in this case. They used the name on purpose, mentioning The Feminine Mystique specifically and presenting Miriam Kosman's article as a "critique" of Friedan's feminism - giving a Torah perspective.
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goodrms
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Thu, Nov 13 2014, 3:50 pm
awhile ago someone mentioned that she wished Miriam Kosman would write a book. well, guess what? she did.I got it as a gift and I cannot put it down. I would not be at all surprised if the book becomes a bestseller. I thought it would be the same type of stuff as her articles in Family First but its something completely different. Its a totally new take on the whole women/equality women/ men issue but its written with the same refreshingly honest, intellectually challenging style. I am nowhere near finished but I just had to share my first impressions. this is not another version of how to communicate better with your spouse and how important it is to have a date night. its a whole different way of viewing ourselves and the whole world. I feel like I can't do it justice in a few lines.
I can't remember what it's called. When I get home I'll check it up, its something to do with a circle and an arrow ...or something like that 
Does anyone know what it's called?
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smss
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Thu, Nov 13 2014, 3:59 pm
| goodrms wrote: | | awhile ago someone mentioned that she wished Miriam Kosman would write a book. |
that was me! thanks for posting, so excited to buy it! I think I found it on amazon, is this it? http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ.....R2ECM
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goodrms
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Thu, Nov 13 2014, 4:17 pm
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Just found this also miriamkosman.com
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shulamith
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Thu, Nov 13 2014, 5:07 pm
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I also read the book and I thought this part was interesting. She has a whole chapter on why men are allowed to marry more than one wife in the Torah. that always bothered me--all those great sheva brachos speeches about two parts of one soul, but according to Torah he can have another wife. She brings a whole thing with lots of sources but she basically says that the fact that marrying more than one wife isn't allowed today is part of Hashem's plan for the world that the world is becoming more according to women's way of looking at things as we get closer to Mashiach. her whole book is about how woman's way of looking at things represents the holier way and that women's job is to pull men in that direction... its hard to explain but it changes the whole way I used to understand things...
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amother
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Thu, Nov 13 2014, 10:17 pm
| shulamith wrote: | | I also read the book and I thought this part was interesting. She has a whole chapter on why men are allowed to marry more than one wife in the Torah. that always bothered me--all those great sheva brachos speeches about two parts of one soul, but according to Torah he can have another wife. She brings a whole thing with lots of sources but she basically says that the fact that marrying more than one wife isn't allowed today is part of Hashem's plan for the world that the world is becoming more according to women's way of looking at things as we get closer to Mashiach. her whole book is about how woman's way of looking at things represents the holier way and that women's job is to pull men in that direction... its hard to explain but it changes the whole way I used to understand things... |
I am not planning to read the whole book at this time (though I'll put it on my list... realistically I'll get to it in 20 years) but would like to hear more about that. Because my DH says the whole marrying only 1 wife thing was a cheirem of the time and not really the way it was supposed to be and it will be nullified when Moshiach comes. He actually talks about having more wives when Moshiach comes and when I say this is offensive he points out that it was the norm in biblical times and even later, until Christianity started and advocated limiting pleasure, so it's all really a xtian thing and I'm only against polygamy because I'm stuck in modern times and my mindset has been affected but that's not really the way it's meant to be.
Being that we are all here wives in monogamous relationships I'm sure you can well understand why I hate this conversation!!! He has mentioned it more than once!
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Nov 14 2014, 9:30 am
| amother wrote: | I am not planning to read the whole book at this time (though I'll put it on my list... realistically I'll get to it in 20 years) but would like to hear more about that. Because my DH says the whole marrying only 1 wife thing was a cheirem of the time and not really the way it was supposed to be and it will be nullified when Moshiach comes. He actually talks about having more wives when Moshiach comes and when I say this is offensive he points out that it was the norm in biblical times and even later, until Christianity started and advocated limiting pleasure, so it's all really a xtian thing and I'm only against polygamy because I'm stuck in modern times and my mindset has been affected but that's not really the way it's meant to be.
Being that we are all here wives in monogamous relationships I'm sure you can well understand why I hate this conversation!!! He has mentioned it more than once! |
Remind him he'll have 2 mothers in law ;-)
Seriously, I don't think it's a Christian thing. I think that it's because historically in most communities it wasn't working. Think of Rabbeinu Gershom.
I heard someone, I don't want to say because I'm not 100% sure, say that polygamy was a great chesed in that it protected women as single women would be vulnerable. Not our reality now in the same way.
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dimyona
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Fri, Nov 14 2014, 9:50 am
| amother wrote: | I am not planning to read the whole book at this time (though I'll put it on my list... realistically I'll get to it in 20 years) but would like to hear more about that. Because my DH says the whole marrying only 1 wife thing was a cheirem of the time and not really the way it was supposed to be and it will be nullified when Moshiach comes. He actually talks about having more wives when Moshiach comes and when I say this is offensive he points out that it was the norm in biblical times and even later, until Christianity started and advocated limiting pleasure, so it's all really a xtian thing and I'm only against polygamy because I'm stuck in modern times and my mindset has been affected but that's not really the way it's meant to be.
Being that we are all here wives in monogamous relationships I'm sure you can well understand why I hate this conversation!!! He has mentioned it more than once! |
A few points:
1) What does he mean that we're affected by the times now? And back then they weren't? Does he really believe that there's some kind of Torah time capsule bubble that the Jewish world was part of, that suddenly popped at some point in history? If so, I'd be curious to hear when that happened. Fascinating theory there.
2) Tell him that if that's how he feels, you have a feeling that when moshiach comes, he's welcome to enjoy his flock of uteruses, but you're not joining that party. You'll be davening for a more logical and emotionally mature man.
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Miriam Kosman
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Sat, Nov 15 2014, 11:29 am
Hi, This is Miriam Kosman here. Someone told me about this thread so I wanted to jump in and clarify what my book actually says about polygamy. (by the way, thanks for the compliments about the articles and about the book. I also (very objectively  ) think it’s groundbreaking so it’s nice to hear other say that as well. It makes me feel very good that people ‘get’ what I am trying to say…)
About the whole idea of polygamy—or marrying more than one wife. You are probably not alone in finding the whole idea extremely distasteful and offensive. I think your feelings are validated in the Gemora. Tosfos (in Eiruvin 100b) lists one of the klallos (curse/punishment) of the woman as “she is forbidden to any other man besides her husband while he can marry many women”. Please note. A KLLALA IS NOT A GOOD THING! It is a description of the painful state of galus, which will change in the geula. But notice: Tosfos does not say that the curse is that he can marry more than one wife, but that she can’t and he can. Why is that a curse? Because it is very painful to be a woman who wants her husband to herself and wants him to WANT to just be married to her—while being married to a man who thinks it would be great to be married to a few women.
But this is the woman’s curse—on some level she is a stranger in this world because she lives in a world that does not understand her voice and even can make fun of it. The whole theme of my new book (circle, arrow, spiral) is that the mission or tafkid of woman is to keep pulling the world closer to the ideal of true love--which as you intuit is about exclusivity and intimacy, not about many.
In the secular world you can see this most strongly—women don’t want [filth], they want commitment, they think the physical should be an expression of the emotional, etc. but the secular world basically says to woman—forget it honey! That is naïve and childish! If you were mature you would be just like us men!
On the other hand, Halacha, is on the woman’s side. Halachos like shemiras haeyinayim, kesuba—where he commits to her—and taharas hamishpcha are all supportive of him beginning to look at the relationship as she does.
By the way, your DH is not wrong in what he says—if you want to look at the world from a historical/social perspective you can explain cheirem drabbeinu gershom the way he does. But if you take a deeper look-- from the perspective that hashem is running the world and He wants us to find the truth, it is hard to ignore that in the entire civilized world polygamy is offensive. Even the sefardim, who were not under the cherem of rabbeinu gershom , can no longer marry more than one wife. You can say well, that is just because today they live in Western countries. Or you can say, Hashem has orchestrated this because more than one wife is a betrayal of the high level relationship he wants for His People.
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Heyaaa
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Sat, Nov 15 2014, 11:52 am
| Miriam Kosman wrote: | Hi, This is Miriam Kosman here. Someone told me about this thread so I wanted to jump in and clarify what my book actually says about polygamy. (by the way, thanks for the compliments about the articles and about the book. I also (very objectively ) think it’s groundbreaking so it’s nice to hear other say that as well. It makes me feel very good that people ‘get’ what I am trying to say…)
About the whole idea of polygamy—or marrying more than one wife. You are probably not alone in finding the whole idea extremely distasteful and offensive. I think your feelings are validated in the Gemora. Tosfos (in Eiruvin 100b) lists one of the klallos (curse/punishment) of the woman as “she is forbidden to any other man besides her husband while he can marry many women”. Please note. A KLLALA IS NOT A GOOD THING! It is a description of the painful state of galus, which will change in the geula. But notice: Tosfos does not say that the curse is that he can marry more than one wife, but that she can’t and he can. Why is that a curse? Because it is very painful to be a woman who wants her husband to herself and wants him to WANT to just be married to her—while being married to a man who thinks it would be great to be married to a few women.
But this is the woman’s curse—on some level she is a stranger in this world because she lives in a world that does not understand her voice and even can make fun of it. The whole theme of my new book (circle, arrow, spiral) is that the mission or tafkid of woman is to keep pulling the world closer to the ideal of true love--which as you intuit is about exclusivity and intimacy, not about many.
In the secular world you can see this most strongly—women don’t want [filth], they want commitment, they think the physical should be an expression of the emotional, etc. but the secular world basically says to woman—forget it honey! That is naïve and childish! If you were mature you would be just like us men!
On the other hand, Halacha, is on the woman’s side. Halachos like shemiras haeyinayim, kesuba—where he commits to her—and taharas hamishpcha are all supportive of him beginning to look at the relationship as she does.
By the way, your DH is not wrong in what he says—if you want to look at the world from a historical/social perspective you can explain cheirem drabbeinu gershom the way he does. But if you take a deeper look-- from the perspective that hashem is running the world and He wants us to find the truth, it is hard to ignore that in the entire civilized world polygamy is offensive. Even the sefardim, who were not under the cherem of rabbeinu gershom , can no longer marry more than one wife. You can say well, that is just because today they live in Western countries. Or you can say, Hashem has orchestrated this because more than one wife is a betrayal of the high level relationship he wants for His People. |
I don't know if you're going to come back to this thread but I don't understand something that you said.
In the last paragraph, did you say that the reason for Cherem Dirabeinu Gershon was because God thinks it's ideal and the only reason it was acceptable before was to be a klala towards women?
It always bothered me that we're supposed to learn midot from the Avot and Imahot but meanwhile, the ones that had multiple wives had fights. Sara told Avraham to marry Hagar but then when he did and they had a kid together, Sara made him chase away Hagar. Rochel told Leah to marry Yaakov but then there many fights about that too, to the extent that Leah didn't even want Rochel to have kids (the story with the duda'im).
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etky
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Sat, Nov 15 2014, 12:04 pm
| Heyaaa wrote: | I don't know if you're going to come back to this thread but I don't understand something that you said.
In the last paragraph, did you say that the reason for Cherem Dirabeinu Gershon was because God thinks it's ideal and the only reason it was acceptable before was to be a klala towards women?
It always bothered me that we're supposed to learn midot from the Avot and Imahot but meanwhile, the ones that had multiple wives had fights. Sara told Avraham to marry Hagar but then when he did and they had a kid together, Sara made him chase away Hagar. Rochel told Leah to marry Yaakov but then there many fights about that too, to the extent that Leah didn't even want Rochel to have kids (the story with the duda'im). |
Yes, but consider Yitzhak and Rivkah, the only monogomous relationship among the avot. It started out well enough but then she deceived him in a very major way. Hardly a model way to treat a beloved spouse.
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