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Pls (gently) critique how I handled this (long)
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 12:54 pm
We had an awful scene here yesterday and I'm trying to think for the future how I could have handled this better. Please do not respond by calling me abusive - I am trying my best...

Scene: 6:45 PM last night, (almost) 4yr old and 2.5 yr old DSs are slightly overtired and hyper, bouncing in their room after I got them into pajamas (with some difficulty) / started folding a huge basket of laundry while they bounced around.

Me: (getting nervous about bedtime struggle) "I'm going to daven mincha now, and afterwards if we clean up the toys we'll have time for stories before we go to bed."
4yr old jumps and collides into laundry basket and decides to throw some of the clean clothing around just for the fun of it.
Me: puts back in laundry and says "laundry stays in the basket to fold and put away so that we'll have socks for tomorrow"

A few minutes later, I repeat "I'm going to daven mincha now, and afterwards if we clean up the toys we'll have time for stories before we go to bed."
I went to daven mincha, and on the way, I transferred the laundry basket to my bedroom to be safe and locked the bedroom door with a hook and eye at the top of the door (Yes, I could have decided they were too hyper to daven, but the rest could have happened if I went to the bathroom / changed babies diaper / turned off burning pot / got a phone call)

30 seconds later: 4yr old DS pulls over a kitchen chair to my bedroom door, stands on it, and unlocks hook and eye (I think he has done this maybe one time ever before. He knows this is not allowed). 2 kids go into room and gleefully start flinging around the laundry.

Me: finishes davening in 1 min and goes to the scene of the crime.
Me: (quietly and sternly but I am really frustrated. ) Please put the laundry back in the basket. Kids do not belong in Mommy's room and laundry doesn't go on the floor.
Kids keep throwing
I repeat
4 yr old looks at me and says "No, we're not putting it away". 2.5 yr old agrees
I repeat. He repeats. I give him a sock and say "Please put it in the basket." He says NO! again.

This is where I have no idea what to do.
I tell him, "In this house we have to listen to Mommy.". Again a no.
We have foyer with a door (there's a door to outside, a small hallway, and then another door into the apartment). I tell him to go there until he's ready to listen. He says no.

I pick him and put him in hallway and close door. Put 2.5 yr old into bed. 4 yr old screams hysterically that he doesn't like it and wants to come in. I offer him to come in and put away laundry. He says no ("Mommy should put it away"). Repeat 10 times with hysterical screams and guilty-feeling helpless mother who is less and less patient each time. Finally he says "Mommy should help me". I offer him to put away 10 pieces and then I can help. Eventually he does.
I put him to sleep on couch so that he shouldn't wake up 2.5yr old DS (he had woken him up the past few nights and had been told he was sleeping on couch tonight. He hates that, but I couldn't start with the pandemonium after that). Gave him a hug and said that we'll have a nice day tomorrow. Said that there was not time any more to read a book. Said that he can't go to his bed until 2.5 yr old DS is asleep. Sat next to him on couch for a few minutes and sang.
Various other issues came up and DH ended up coming home and finishing up with bedtime before utter pandemonium ensued again.

So after the long scene, I think my question is: what is the way to handle a "No" to a direct request / order / consequence. I couldn't just ignore it but getting into a power struggle with DS usually means that he wins Very Happy
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 1:02 pm
Get a combination lock on your door?
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 1:04 pm
I just repeat "When a Mommy says yes it is YES, and when a Mommy says NO it is No." and I'm a broken record about it.
If the kid is in bed, and crying, I say the same thing, but in a sad tone of voice. Broken record, no other words at all.
I would probably leave the laundry till the morning. When they are not overtired and not hyper, I'd tell them it's time to do teshuva and pick up the laundry. I'd hug and praise......
Got this from Dr. Koslowitz's parenting class, with a few modifications. Can't say I came up with it on my own.
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21young




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 1:16 pm
First, kudos to you for keeping calm, but there is too much bargaining going on.

You have to prevent this whole situation from escalating in the first place. Yes, with difficult toddlers there will always be struggles but you want to avoid confrontation as much as you can. I would stop you when you started folding laundry - 6:45 is rush hour and is dedicated to children only. You can fold laundry when they're in bed. If you do the laundry then you will get frustrated and they will get wild. Nothing will get done.

At 6:45 you leave the house a flying wreck and you put the kids to bed. Give them your undivided attention, say shema and tuck them in. It's a very reasonable hour for them to go to bed, and you can then straighten up at your leisure.

To daven mincha then, after seeing that they need your attention, is really asking for disaster. There's a reason why men are mechuyav to daven and women are not. If you can, daven later, and if not, don't daven. First take care of the kids.

But let's say they made trouble and you punished 4 y.o. Personally I never put my kid outside, I put him in the corner, but everyone has their own methods. However, no bargaining. If he doesn't want to clean up he can stay there until he decides to clean up. He's not cold or in obvious danger, so let him stay there and yell until he's ready to clean it all up. I would then do as you did, lovingly tuck him in and say, tomorrow will be a better day, I love you.

Just my two cents.
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 1:21 pm
I wouldn't daven mincha when I have little kids around. I would put them to bed first.

if you cant get to mincha then you can daven maariv instead.

women are patur for this very reason.
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 1:35 pm
Honestly? I think you handled it just fine! Instead of doing time-out for a 4 year old, they can already understand consequences so I would say "you should not have spilled the laundry. You can help me pick it up now or there won't be time for a book."

But anyway, some days are just hard, you feel like a broken record saying the same thing over and over. The kids are internalizing it even if it doesn't seem like it!

I agree with other posters that maybe the evening should be only focused on the kids. Mincha can be earlier, laundry can be later or the next morning.
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suzyq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 1:51 pm
I recently read the book "How to Set Limited with your Strong-Willed Child" and found it very helpful. Basically, it boils down to being clear, consistent and following through. Your child needs to know that your requests are serious. And consequences have to fit the crime. Check out the book if you have time.

http://www.amazon.com/Setting-.....child
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spring13




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 2:02 pm
That's is how I handle things for my strong-willed 4.6 and 2 year olds (except I'd probably have yelled at some point, I'm working on that). I wish it was easier. I don't think you made any mistakes in terms of your response to his behavior, it's just hard to swallow when it takes so long and so much repetition to get results.

And yeah, you probably shouldn't have bothered going to daven when they were already wild and ready for trouble. Which is also not easy to swallow, but it's reality.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 2:09 pm
After asking the child to help me put away the laundry, I would ask a second time and then either walk away or ignore. I'm not going to fight back and forth with a child. I would later explain that he has lost a privilege for not listening. Next time he doesn't listen I'll remind him of the loss of privileges. Next time he'll listen because he will remember that he was punished for not listening.
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Barbara




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 2:10 pm
I think you handled it well, EXCEPT...

I would never, never ever put a child out of the home. Even in a vestibule right outside the door, it could be terrifying for a young child. It takes it from "time out" to "being removed from home and everyone who cares for me."

On top of that, you mention that you live in an apartment. Unless this was a private entrance, you were making your problems those of others who live in the same building. Plus, given that he figured out how to open your bedroom door, what made you think that he wasn't going to go outside?
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 2:44 pm
There were a lot of things you did right. You kept basically calm. You imposed consequences, and got the 4 year old to help with the cleanup. You let him know that tomorrow is another day.

The only real issue was putting him in the foyer, and there are alternatives.

Time outs work because kids thrive on predictability and on attention. They would far sooner have an explosion of negative attention than nothing at all. So there is a predictable outcome for defiance, and no attention for it, only positive attention for compliance.

1. Find a safe space inside, and designate it for time out. A chair facing a corner or a closed closet is a fine alternative. It needs to be a place where there will be no stimulation. Tell the kids that this is the time out space. Have a timer available.

2. Talk to the kids about the rules -- people and things stay safe, we listen to Mommy -- and show them the time out corner. Explain that when a rule is broken, the kid goes to time out for a short tme (I do under 5 minutes). Have them practice. When they are in a cooperative mood, this will feel like a game; that's fine. Set the timer for a 1 minute practice. Explain that if they do not go to time out, they will lose a significant privilege for a significant length of time (for us, it's no electronics for a week, and it has never happened that the kid would refuse time out for more than a minute).

3. Make sure they understand that if one is in time out, the other has to be in a separate place. It must be quiet. If the child in time out is making noise, the timer stops until he is quiet.

4. Once the time out is over, the child is enthusiastically praised for doing a good job in time out. Do not discuss the behavior that led to the time out; you are moving on. (Do this when you practice, too.) If there was a "no" to a request, the request is repeated. If the child is still defiant, the drill is repeated. Eventually, the child will get bored and acquiesce. He is immediately praised and the disobedience is not mentioned again.

5. I agree with others that under the circumstances, it was a mistake to daven mincha then. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Hang in there; you're doing well!
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 2:59 pm
OP Here - thanks all who responded. (and I wish I was as calm as you're describing )

I knew I should have changed the story from davening mincha to something else Smile. I prob. should have waited to daven (even though kids were playing nicely, just slightly hyper and I thought that sending them to bed without time to bounce around / unwind would be too difficult. I'm asking what to do in the future - I could have been using bathroom / changing a horrific diaper blowout / salvaging the food that burnt and set off a smoke alarm / answering an urgent phone call. Life happens and time with children can't be 1000% devoted to them alone (even though it feels like it is). Laundry was also very low-key, just folded a few pieces sitting next to them while they were playing. There is still a huge mountain to be climbed.

Barbara, I didn't send him out of the house! Ch"v! There is a doorway from outside that is only mine, that leads into a foyer / hallway and then another door into the main apartment. There are no neighbors around and it's not a public area. It somehow became the timeout spot bec it's easier to enforce him sitting there because there is no other stimulation and there's a door to close (same power struggle issue - if I send to couch, he bounces right off)

suzyq, I'm ordering the book
imasinger, I love the idea of practicing timeout. He loves practicing scenarios, but doesn't follow through "IRL". What type of "nuclear" consequence could I give a 4yr old who doesn't stay though - I feel like he's too young to be punished tomorrow for something he did today.

21young, I know there's too much bargaining, but what do I do when he comes out screaming that he won't listen?
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 7:06 pm
amother wrote:

imasinger, I love the idea of practicing timeout. He loves practicing scenarios, but doesn't follow through "IRL". What type of "nuclear" consequence could I give a 4yr old who doesn't stay though - I feel like he's too young to be punished tomorrow for something he did today.


You are right. For a 4 year old, you could just say, "I'm going to cover my eyes and count, and see how fast you can get to the chair", and that should be enough. Try it!
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amother


 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 7:57 pm
I'm probably going to get bashed for this, but it works with our family

if my kid knows something is bad and does it anyway, I calmly but sternly explain to him that mommy does not allow him to do this, and I don't want to see him do this again. Sometimes I will also include why I don't him to do this, but the fact that a mother said no should be enough.

IF he does it again, he gets a potch. I warn him that if he'll continue, he'll get another potch. Usually he'll stop at this point.

I do this because this is how my siblings and I all grew up, and we all turned out to be relatively disciplined and respectful towards our parents. I see that it works with my kids.

and of course I will be imamother for this because I'm sure somebody will think I'm a child abuser for potching my kids.
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penguin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 8:17 pm
I would suggest reading John Rosemond.
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dr. pepper




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 9:55 pm
Firstly, you responded amazing. If you call that abusive...heavens for me Wink

Secondly, I absolutely second the motion for John Rosemonds books, in particular "The well behaved child." I taken Ruthi Lynn's courses and they are great (based off of Rebt. Spetner).

The bottom line is, a child can not say no to a mommy. The end.

I find the best punishments to be putting a child that age to bed earlier than a younger sibling. It's like the ultimate slap in the fact. And my explanations are usually something to the effect of "a boy who says no to him mommy is obviously too tired and needs extra sleep" or "boys who say no to a mommy cannot stay up for a big boy bed time. That is a privilege and I''h next time you'll listen right away."

Hatzlocha and don't beat yourself up too much; you sound like your on the right track.
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carrot




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 10 2014, 10:24 pm
penguin wrote:
I would suggest reading John Rosemond.


I second (third?) this recommendation.

I think I would have done (more or less) the same as you. Definitely outright defiance like that should be followed by the loss of some privilege. There is no need to tell him beforehand what the consequence will be, you can just do it. He will understand the cause and effect and take you seriously as someone who means what you say. You can be kind and sorry when you tell him what sad thing is happening to him, you can be sad with him. ("We're so sad that you're not getting to help me pour the ingredients; I hope next time you listen right away so this won't happen again!")
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deena19k




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 11 2014, 7:06 am
I am very pro-time out. BUT I would never do time out in a place where the door is closed and the kid is alone. I only do it in the corner of the living room or wherever. I think it's horrible for a kid to be alone with the door closed. Something about it gives me the shivers.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 11 2014, 7:38 am
deena19k wrote:
I am very pro-time out. BUT I would never do time out in a place where the door is closed and the kid is alone. I only do it in the corner of the living room or wherever. I think it's horrible for a kid to be alone with the door closed. Something about it gives me the shivers.


On the other hand, some kids are so sensory seeking that an area that is "boring" is exactly what they need to help calm themselves down. Some kids just don't stay in time out if there's any way they can escape, reach something to throw, break, or otherwise escalate and get even more negative attention.

Then there are kids like my sister, where if you even said the words "time out" she'd burst into tears and say "I'll be good! I'll be GOOOOOOOD!"

You have to know what works with each kid's personality.
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suzyq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 11 2014, 10:09 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
On the other hand, some kids are so sensory seeking that an area that is "boring" is exactly what they need to help calm themselves down. Some kids just don't stay in time out if there's any way they can escape, reach something to throw, break, or otherwise escalate and get even more negative attention.

Then there are kids like my sister, where if you even said the words "time out" she'd burst into tears and say "I'll be good! I'll be GOOOOOOOD!"

You have to know what works with each kid's personality.


I agree with this. Being alone is the only thing that calms my son down. Otherwise, he feels he has to perform.
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