Are frum people socially awkward?

Chayalle

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 10:35 am

Learning wrote:

Especially in Israel. Frum people considered rude. Maybe they feel superior in their own group. Also it is lack of westernized social skills. I remember one chasidish man spit on the bus floor in Israel some 20 years ago when I visited there. The entire bus started screaming at him and called him disgusting. The staring is extremely rude and arrogant. It is not just different culture. Frum people are very nice to you when you are in the "group" or if you are a chessed project otherwise they can be very rude.

Last time I was in Israel, my experience was the opposite of what you describe.

I was getting onto the bus with my screaming 21-month-old DD and her stroller, when two frum men motioned me aside and lifted the stroller onto the bus for me. A young girl graciously offered her seat and the woman sitting next to me began to make silly faces at DD to help calm her down. Someone else took my payment up front to the driver so I could sit comfortably.

It felt like the entire bus was going out of their way for a woman and her baby. As nice an experience as can be, and it felt like - only in E"Y.

nechamashifra

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 12:28 pm

There's awkward, which is acceptable, and there is plain rudeness which I think many frum communities need to work on. A recent example: I was waiting at a mall for an elevator - an older non jewish lady was waiting as well. Two frum young women show up, one pushing a stroller. The two girls are deep in conversation and pay no attention to the old lady who smiles warmly at the adorable baby in the stroller. The elevator doors open and the two girls still in their conversation get in first without so much as acknowledging the older lady's existence. It would have been nice if they would have let her go in first (she was there first, she is also old)...thankfully the baby was more polite and smiled back:)
We reach the floor where everyone gets off - 2 frum girls first, old lady holding the door button - not a nod or smile or thank you in her direction. Is this considered cultural differences? or lack of social etiquette? Not sure....but I've seen it time and again in frum communities and it makes me cringe to think what we must look like to the secular world.

amother

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 1:05 pm

nechamashifra wrote:

This is so true. It is so cold and calculated. If you don't need the person for shidduch reference he doesn't exist.

Ruchel

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 1:13 pm

UQT wrote:

Non Jewish people are the perfect neighbors who always say hi? How about all the crazy stories you hear in the news about people dead 7 years in a garage or in Ohio the women who were kidnapped for years in a house and the neighbors were oblivious. Call frum people nosy, but if something happened to us c'v our neighbors will be there to step in.

BH many frummies let you live!
I have frum neighbours I only see once a year for MM- if that. They may just drop on the doorstep.

Btw my non Jewish neighbour who is 80 and disabled saw me pregnant with my toddler and asked if my husband stayed at home with me. I said no, she told me if I ever need help with anything please come

mommy3b2c

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 1:37 pm

nechamashifra wrote:

They were rude. What does that have to do with being frum? True, it would be very nice if all frum people would be careful to be super friendly to everyone, but it has nothing to do with being frum. And by the way, their behavior was not socially awkward. Two young moms conversing and pushing a stroller who were not paying attention to the people next to them is not a socially awkward thing to do, even if they were not polite

amother

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 1:47 pm

I don't know about the social awkwardness so much but I have sadly experienced the rudeness. I see it quite often in shops and also in general conversation with people who are nosy, untactful or intrusive. Also the other day in the shop this lady gave my mother a dirty look for absolutely no reason. Also a lot of pushing and shoving.
I feel like I don't fit in as I am very polite and a gentle, sensitive person.
I am a baal teshuva and I grew up with a different code of etiquette and manner. In school we had to say please and thank you and the teachers would say we have to hold the door open for other people. We were also taught general politeness and consideration.
I feel this is not taught in religious schools. I think some frum people are very good people but I know some non Jews who have more grace.

debsey

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:39 pm

sequoia wrote:

I am saying that you can be frum while not being very different from the surrounding culture. At least in terms of manners. Where I live men may not have long chats with women but they will certainly say, "Hello," "Excuse me," and so on. No reason for anyone to be rude.

And you can be frum and acculturated to be VERY different from the surrounding culture! Depends on where you were raised and what you were taught.

The idea is that in certain cultures, saying "Hello" to a woman if you're a man would be rude because you are not supposed to address a woman who is not related to you - so by that culture's lights, if you are a man and DO say hello to a woman, you're being a boor and a buffoon!
If a man is venturing forth into a culture not his own, it is wise to learn the rules of that culture and attempt not to violate them, UNLESS those rules would violate his religious principles.

Just because you don't hold those principles to be valuable doesn't mean that the man who is upholding them has to follow your opinion. However, such a person also has to not be gratuitously rude. If you're shoving people out of your way in your rush to grab a subway seat, then you should also be able to say "excuse me" to those people.

I have worked in environments where it is the norm to shake hands. I don't shake hands with men. You and I can argue from today till tomorrow about whether or not this is a correct application of Orthodox Judaism, but it won't change the fact that this is my value.

The strategy that I have evolved is to put as charming a smile as I can muster on my face and say "I'm so sorry, I don't shake hands with men for religious reasons. I'm sure you understand!" (or "I hope you understand, or I hope that doesn't offend you....depending on where I am)
I wouldn't give the guy a dirty look or look disdainfully at his hand - that would be rude - but neither am I going to sacrifice what *I* see as my own personal integrity and the upholding of a principle that I hold dear for someone *else's* idea of etiquette.

At the same token, I thought it was kind of my obligation to have some topics of conversation in common with my co-workers, so I made sure to Google one of the shows (Dancing With The Stars) that they were all obsessed with, so at least I had some sense of what they were talking about in the break room! I would consider it rude to hide out during breaks and never go to the break room, just because I have nothing intelligent to contribute on 99% of the conversations..........
debsey

debsey

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:43 pm

nechamashifra wrote:

Or perhaps - they are just thoughtless 20 somethings, totally wrapped up in themselves! That is hardly endemic to the frum community only.
I agree that sometimes, people need to be sensitized. Some of this may be a residual aspect of a "guard your eyes" kind of training - stick with your own, be careful what you look at lest it influence you badly, may turn into a kind of purposeful blurry gaze when outside of the community. It's a reflex that is not always bad, but like all reflexes, you need to be aware you HAVE it, before you can CONTROL it.
But usually, it's not ill-intentioned, and all you have to do is sensitize them - say - you know, you had the opportunity to make a Kiddush Hashem by smiling back at the nice old lady who held the door for you, ought to be sufficient.

OOTBubby

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 3:34 pm

amother wrote:

Some are. Some people will stare unblinking. It is rude. I tell the story of being at an A Time buffet dinner and the ladies were pushing and shoving to get to the food so hard I was knocked right out of my shoes. I have been rammed with a shopping cart because a man wouldn't speak with me to say excuse me. Of course he didn't apologize. The collectors are the worst. Ladies demanding rides instead of asking politely are the seems worse. The third worse is people pushing and shoving to get Shabbos flowers. Regular graceful social norms are lacking in a large part of the population.

You need to visit some OOT communities (even very larges ones) -- people do not do those things there.

zaq

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 4:55 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I worked in a "hardcore" BY and teachers Messed to teach there, including frei and non Jews, who would play the game and dress yeshivish, just to have the polite, respectful students.
I will iyh never again teach in a community school.
Public school even in my time... and nowadays, NO NO NO WAY for me.

Funny you should say that. I've known people who felt just the opposite, that frum kids were chutzpadik knowitalls and they'd take subpar public school kids over bright but undisciplined frum kids any day. And aren't you both overgeneralizing just a bit? There are communities here where public schools are so excellent, people take pay cuts to move there so their children can attend those schools. There are towns where the public schools are so deplorable, people go into debt to send their children to private schools.

33055

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 5:37 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

I am curious to know when I attacked you? I am usually not harsh at all and re-read my posts a few times. Last night I was just really annoyed. Regarding being offended, I am not offended for myself, I am annoyed that frum people are constantlay basing frum people on frum site with baseless comments. Like this one or that chassidim dont wash their hands with soap. My husband hates chassidim and is constantly bashing them. I always have to defend them. Then I come on here and I have to defend frum people as a whole. I really dont get all this frum people are so lacking in all normal areas.... Its really starting to get on my nerves. As for being immature, believe me im not. If you feel I wrote something immature please let me know what. Id like to read it.

It is not baseless when it is in fact true. I assume your comment was directed to me about certain groups not using soap after they toilet. The Dr in Refuah Health Center in New Square was explaining to me how certain groups of frum people pass the MRSA germs though wash cups and towels. The center itself had a wash sink with no soap and dirty plastic wash cup with grime built up. I have used the toilets at numerous people's houses with no soap. The office building I worked in had no soap or soap dispensers even. The same thing is true at a certain restaurant. I sent my hosts into a tizzy when I asked for hand soap when I was an overnight guest and they had to borrow dishwashing soap from the neighbors. I do bring my own soap now. Try finding soap on Pesach in certain people's houses. It is not done. Certain of my guests do not use soap after they toilet but they will use the wash cup and say Asher yatzar. A few other posters as amother acknowledged their own experiences with their families not using soap. The discussion came about because Opinionated mentioned that chassidim do not have an understanding of germs. My discussion came about with the Dr because someone in my family was sick and the suspected cause was MRSA transmitted by certain folks not washing their hands after toileting.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Sep 12 2014, 5:41 pm

Squishy wrote:

Ok. Sure. Whatever you say.

Cookie Monster

Sat, Sep 13 2014, 9:52 pm

Squishy wrote:

If I start a thread about the weather, or about ISIS beheading journalists, or an "Am I Pregnant" thread, are you also going to manage to turn that into a "Frum PPL dont use soap" threa?

33055

Sat, Sep 13 2014, 10:11 pm

Cookie Monster wrote:

If I start a thread about the weather, or about ISIS beheading journalists, or an "Am I Pregnant" thread, are you also going to manage to turn that into a "Frum PPL dont use soap" threa?

I never brought it up once. I answered an accusation in this thread that I made a "baseless" comment that Chassidish people don't use soap. I object to the "baseless" characterization.

In the only other thread that I ever discussed this on, I was responding to a poster's comment about the lack of knowledge about germs. Certainly not using soap after toileting or changing diapers lends credence to the idea there is not sufficient education about germs in certain groups. I never made an across the board statement.