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What do you think?
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:06 pm
I am interested in hearing other people's perspective and not ask a rav type responses. If it comes to it a rav will be consulted. The situation hasn't reached a point yet where it is necessary to ask.

A mother-of-the-bride ordered a gown to be custom made for her. She saw the gown in a different color and copied it, exactly. Due to the color she wanted, the seamstress had to use a different material which is slightly stiffer and looks it.
The customer saw the finished gown twice and asked for slight changes to be made. Each time the seamstress complied.
It is now 2 days before the wedding and the seamstress notified the customer the last of the changes were made and gown is ready. The customer said she is really not happy with the material and has a backup gown so she may not take the gown but will try it on again after shabbos and decide.
At the time of ordering the customer paid a non-refundable deposit. Now the seamstress would like the customer to pay the remainder of the balance regardless of whether she takes the gown or not. The seamstress said at this point she has done all she can to make the customer happy and the stiffness of the material is beyond her control.
Do you think the customer should pay the seamstress more than she already has? Please explain.
(Anon because situation has been discussed irl)
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:15 pm
I think the customer should certainly pay the seamstress for her labor. And if the material was something that the seamstress usually does not stock but had to get special. The customer should pay for that too.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:16 pm
I think the seamstress should definitely be paid. She put in all the work exactly as the customer asked.

Honestly, I can't imagine why the customer thinks she has a right to withhold payment. That seems like extreme entitlement to me.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:23 pm
amother wrote:
Due to the color she wanted, the seamstress had to use a different material which is slightly stiffer and looks it.


Did the seamstress explain this to the customer before getting started? If not, I can understand customer's disappointment in thinking she was getting A but instead getting B.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:40 pm
amother wrote:
Did the seamstress explain this to the customer before getting started? If not, I can understand customer's disappointment in thinking she was getting A but instead getting B.


except that OP wrote:
Quote:
The customer saw the finished gown twice and asked for slight changes to be made. Each time the seamstress complied.

If the customer was not happy with the material she should have said something at the first appointment.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:43 pm
I am usually one of those who say AYLOR. But in this case its so obvious to me that the seamstress must be paid in full and there is no shayla.
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Eemaof3




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:46 pm
Pay in full.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:47 pm
amother wrote:
I am usually one of those who say AYLOR. But in this case its so obvious to me that the seamstress must be paid in full and there is no shayla.


ITA.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 2:56 pm
zaq wrote:
ITA.


Me too! I also would usually respond with AYLOR, but in this case, it seems that the Fifth Shulchan Aruch should apply.
The only exception would be if the seamstress told the mother many times- don't worry, the fabric won't be stiffer in the final product, and then it was.
But that is not what OP wrote.

I like to err on the side of asking a rav simply because, I don't wanna come back as a fly or a spider just because of a few hundred bucks, but that's just me!
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Peanut2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 3:19 pm
Of course the seamstress should be paid in full. She did her job.
The customer can wear the dress if and when she wants to, or not at all. Totally irrelevant to whether the seamstress should be paid.
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 3:40 pm
This is what people do after putting in all that work-She saw it when she had fittings. She should've changed her mind in the beginning now she has to pay. She might be able to sell it
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amother


 

Post Fri, Sep 12 2014, 4:21 pm
Same thing happened to me a sa sister not the mother.
I took the gown because I didn't think otherwise-she made it so I paid her, and I couldn't afford a different dress so I wore it and now I can't even look at the pictures. I'm so fat and busty (and I'm never busty-not even big over there)
So I totally understand the mother. she should for sure use the other gown, but should pay the seamstress. Maybe the seamstress can give Her a better deal though
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chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 13 2014, 10:28 am
The client ordered a dress a specific way and is getting something different. The seamstress should drop the price significantly to make up for that, but be prepared that the client has the right to not take the dress. Regardless that she saw it twice already.

You're suggesting that since she saw it already, she should've said something then. But if changing the material wasn't an option, what was she supposed to say??? The seamstress told her it had to be that stiff material. And that means the seamstress cannot produce the order correctly.
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vicki




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 13 2014, 12:23 pm
I'm also not clear on the customer's perspective on the color not being available in the material she wanted but it had to be a stiffer material. Did the customer insist on this and the seamstress went along or did the seamstress insist on this and the customer went along? Exactly what was said to get the 2nd party to go along? Were there assurances made by the seamstress, as debsey offered, for example, that the dress would come out soft as can be even though the material was stiffer?
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 13 2014, 2:13 pm
Did she approve the fabric, knowing that the different texture would make the dress look different? That is important in understanding whether she was justified in rejecting the dress or not.

If she knew the dress would look different, and in what way the difference in fabric would affect the overall appearance, and she was happy with this fabric and the possibility it would look quite different to the dress she was having copied, and then decided she was not happy after several fittings and the foreknowledge of the necessary changes, I would think she is duty bound to pay, even if she doesn't want it in that condition.

If she was not clear about how the change in fabric would affect the overall look, and it was never explicitly explained to her, she may be justified in rejecting it, as she was under the impression that it would be identical, even if it was clear to the dressmaker it couldn't be.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Sep 13 2014, 5:39 pm
Op here
She asked for the dress to be made in a specific color and was told the fabric used would depend on color availability so she knew it might not be the same fabric. She wasn't specifically told different fabrics lay differently.
To those that say she is not getting what she ordered, can you elaborate please? When you custom order something based on a sample you expect it to be exactly the same? Most times it's understood that a finished product can differ from a sample. For example, if you see a piece of furniture made from oak wood but order it in another wood, does the seller specifically have to say that there will be differences because different kinds of wood stain and look different? Or is that to be understood that you chose a different wood so the finished product will be as similar to the sample as possible but because of the difference in wood there will be slight differences?
I am neither the customer nor the seamstress but am involved.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 13 2014, 6:18 pm
The only parallel I can think of is my wedding dress, which I had made (because my dh's cousin is a wedding dressmaker and I was obliged, no because I was particularly fussy).

One of the first things we discussed was the different fabrics, she showed me samples, and explained how the different types result in a different style, so heavy silk is good for one style, chiffon for another etc. Then we designed it and chose the material that would best showcase that style of dress.

Until I went through that process, I had no idea that different fabrics made such a difference to the look and style of the dress, although it makes sense and is a really basic thing to be aware of when matching fabric to style, for any dress.

If the customer did not understand or appreciate the difference in style made inevitable by the choice of fabric, and this was not made clear to her, eg "it will not hang or drape precisely the way the sample dress does because the color you need doesn't come in that fabric, but this is how it will be", she is going to be disappointed with the outcome.

Whether that means the dressmaker should remain unpaid for her work, or the customer should pay for a dress that was not what she wanted, I don't know.
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 13 2014, 6:29 pm
This type of scenario makes me glad I'm not so finicky about clothing.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 13 2014, 6:43 pm
I think the dressmaker should be paid in full, but I hope that she (the dressmaker) will make use of this experience. I have never had a dress made fo me, so this is perhaps asking too much, I don't know.

When I had my chairs reupholstered, the shop gave me books wih different colors and fabrics to choose from. I cam in with three coices, and he discussed how each one would look and feel when the work was done.

Why can't a dressmaker keep a selection of fabric remnants on hand to show clients how a material would look and feel BEFORE buying that fabric in that color to make a dress?

And shouldn't there be a contract specifying what each party's responsibilities are ahead of time? Something that says "once the fabric is cut and sewn, client is obligated in the purchase of this dress. Seamstress will make minor changes in accordance with client's wishes." Or something.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 13 2014, 6:50 pm
amother wrote:
Op here
She asked for the dress to be made in a specific color and was told the fabric used would depend on color availability so she knew it might not be the same fabric. She wasn't specifically told different fabrics lay differently.
To those that say she is not getting what she ordered, can you elaborate please? When you custom order something based on a sample you expect it to be exactly the same? Most times it's understood that a finished product can differ from a sample. For example, if you see a piece of furniture made from oak wood but order it in another wood, does the seller specifically have to say that there will be differences because different kinds of wood stain and look different? Or is that to be understood that you chose a different wood so the finished product will be as similar to the sample as possible but because of the difference in wood there will be slight differences?
I am neither the customer nor the seamstress but am involved.


It depends if it you are an uman ( professional ) or not
For example if you are paid to watch silver and it's really gold you are chayuv. If you aren't paid you are only chiyuv for silver

If the seamstress didn't warn you that the material can be drastically different ( ie : kas for meshi) then it's not so clear cut the customer owes her for the material
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