Cleveland vs. Cincinnati

amother

Sat, Sep 13 2014, 10:32 pm

We are planning on moving from Israel this coming summer. We have looking into both Cleveland and Cincinnati. I am aware that they are both very different from many aspects and we feel that there are both pros and cons to being part of a smaller or bigger community.

Can you please help me to figure out all the different pros and cons that there are? I can't really figure out how to make this decision - help! My kids (ages 6.5 - 2) have been pretty sheltered, growing up in Israel in a charedi community, but we have been open minded with them. They have been exposed to certain Disney movies and educational videos (Magic School Bus, Franklin, LeapFrog, etc.) They have non-frum relatives and are very accepting of the fact that they dress and do differently than we do.

Ideally, I would like to choose place to live that we can envision being there long term and not have to ship our kids out to board elsewhere as school progresses. I am not sure how I feel about co-ed classes for my kids - in Cinci, I am pretty sure they just split the second grade, which is where my oldest will be next year - my kids have all been in separate classes for a few years now.

What other challenges are there in a smaller, more out of town community vs. a larger more established maybe "more in town" type of community? (chinuch, financial, etc.) My dh and I are from Midwestern communities, his very small, mine very large, for some background.

Anyone who can help give me some clarity here would be very appreciated! If there are different questions I should be asking, please tell me!

Thanks!

Anon b/c I have discussed this with others.

amother

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 4:13 am

You're going to have culture shock no matter where you go.

Cleveland (where I live) is getting a lot bigger than it used to be. No way will you know everyone in the community unless you're a really social person. The pros of having more people are: you have more people to choose from when finding friends, so you have more of a chance of finding personalities that you mesh with; more chinuch options; more organizations to volunteer with; more options for eating out. The cons are that you have to actively work on building friendships (people won't be beating down your door to meet you); and the community needs you less than in smaller places.

I like Cleveland and am pretty happy here. If I were moving from a chareidi EY environment Cincinnati wouldn't be an option I'd consider. Cleveland would definitely be easier for my children to adjust to. Lots more yeshivishe families. But, I'm a bit lonely here in Cleveland and dream of moving somewhere really OOT where everyone would know me. (I'm shy and really stressed with work, though, so if I had more time for socializing things would probably be different. My dh and kids are very happy.)

Hashem_Yaazor

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 7:06 pm

Amother, your kids are most likely going to be in coed classes from first grade and up in Cincinnati. The first and second grade are split this year, third was split, but last minute something happened and it is together...but while I am unsure how big the grade before 1st is, the next grade has 2 regular classes plus a bunch of kids in the montessori track, so it very likely could be that the kindergarten class is also large.

Feel free to PM me about the transition. I think I have what to offer Smile

amother

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 7:23 pm

amother wrote:

If I were moving from a chareidi EY environment Cincinnati wouldn't be an option I'd consider. Cleveland would definitely be easier for my children to adjust to. Lots more yeshivishe families.

We moved from EY to Cinci and I think I disagree.
While there aren't roves of chareidi types, it's very non materialistic, so in that sense, more like EY. The opposite extreme would be like moving to NY with tons of chareidi types, and getting lost in the pulsating maze of gashmius. Cinci is a very low key place - can be actually a very good landing place from EY.

Having said that, it's very hard to pick a community from afar and commit to staying there forever. You may just have to pick one and eventually move on.

Like HY said, if coed school is a problem for you, Cinci's school doesn't have hard and fast rules about splitting- it's more based on each year's situation with each particular grade. If that is a line you are not willing to cross, then it's prob not the place for you. But it is small and friendly.

ElTam

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 8:14 pm

I had heard the boy's high school was in much better shape this year than in the past. For charedi/yeshivish, there is also the option to send to Telshe in Cleveland, where the boys board, but are just 30 min away and can come home on a regular schedule.

But I would speak to someone who has a boy in the Mesivta high school (a branch of the Hebrew Academy), which neither Marina not I do. In any case, the likelihood is that the boy's high school will be much different in a few years, and OP's children are very young.

OP, I really like Cleveland. It is growing, so you do have to work to get to know people, but at the same time it tends to be a very warm and welcoming community.

You can choose to live in one of three neighborhoods, each of which has their own flavor. There is a community eiruv and a Rambam eiruv in the Cleveland Heights community. There are two mikvaot, two kosher butchers, two meat restaurants, three dairy restaurants. Two kosher bakeries. Two seforim stores with Judaica, etc. On frum grocery store and the local grocers stock to meet the needs of kosher shoppers.

amother

Sun, Sep 14 2014, 10:26 pm

Quote:

What kind of huge problem? All the boys' high schools? Is this likely to resolve over the next decade or so before my boys reach high school?

There's no such a thing as a "boys' high school" unless you're talking Mizrachi. The HAC mesivta program, like I think I mentioned earlier (maybe not, there've been a lot of Cleveland threads lately and they're all running together in my head), is not for yeshivishe boys, generally. From your description, you wouldn't be sending your boys there unless there were special circumstances. So don't worry about it. The yeshivishe families send their 9th grade boys to either Telshe (local, but with dorms) or to various different cities.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 6:21 pm

amother wrote:

And I'll add that I'm coming from an insular community myself, and the adjustment wasn't too hard for my kids, and I have older ones.

The level of learning is going to be less than it was in EY (though if your oldest is a girl, that's not much of an issue) but learning can be supplemented at home (my oldest has started learning a different masechta than is in the school curriculum)...the middos on the other hand I believe are far better than any bigger community, and I already see a difference in my children. So far we have not heard of any teasing or bullying at school (and I have vulnerable kids), and it seems to me the level of derech eretz is a notch higher.

The community is extremely warm and welcoming, above and beyond. There is no need to seek out people, they flock to you Wink

The community also lives pretty condensed so that helps make it easy to find friends.

The pace of life I find is laid back, but still busy (but that might be this specific tekufa) -- it is very family oriented I am finding, and I think as a family unit we have progressed significantly from a more rushed lifestyle in a community with different school schedules and carpooling, etc

marina

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 7:40 pm

Sorry, I didn't come back earlier, I wasn't really following this thread. Anyway, here's the story with the boys' school. This is only about Saperstein (Hebrew Academy Mesivta). I do not know anything about Telz, and based on the below, I would go with Telz over Saperstein.

Hebrew Academy decided a year or two ago that they want to compete with Telz and create a real yeshiva high school, as opposed to the more inclusive program they had earlier. Their reason was that many in the community ended up sending their high school boys away to learn and Saperstein was sort of small.

So the hanhala hired a new administrator and brought him over to lead Saperstein. This administrator's policy is very exclusive, not only for 9-12, but also starting to be that way for junior high. Many, many good kids from excellent families have been rejected for stupid excuse reasons like not the right color shirts, etc. The idea is that by making it more exclusive, the school will gain a reputation for being a "real" yeshiva and others in the community will eventually choose to keep their boys here instead of sending them away.

In the mean time, many families are very angry and feel rejected. They have started a small school (number 4) for the kids whose families don't want to send them away but who were not accepted by the Administrator. As a result of all this, Saperstein has shrunk even more. There is no 9th grade. There is one or two kids in 11th. The 10th and 12th have more, but there are probably a total of 17 kids or so in the entire high school. One family recently made waves when their son was accepted into 9th grade, but because there were NO other kids in 9th grade, the family removed their kids from HAC and sent them to Mizrachi, a modern co-ed school.

I know a lot of this b/c I'm very good friends with both a teacher at Yavneh and one of the principals, and because I have a son in 8th grade and he is friends with all of these kids and I am sometimes contacted by their moms to ask about Mizrachi and they tell me all this. And everyone is constantly discussing this at shiurim and shul. None of the above is secret, it is all public knowledge.

I don't know much about Telz and its challenges, but I would encourage you to look into that school instead.

Also, my bad- I put schools in the plural, so that implied all the boys' schools were in trouble. I was just thinking of Saperstein. Sorry!

Last edited by marina on Mon, Sep 15 2014, 7:51 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 7:45 pm

I don't know about Cleveland but Cincinnati has school vouchers which is a huge savings. The school is completely split by gender from 4th grade and up and is only coed in the third grade this year. The montessori/al pi darko program in the preschool is incredibly progressive and innovative (sadly our family missed it)and we are very fortunate to have the program given the costs of running it and the size of our school.
Housing is affordable. The shul is a beautiful new building and the men's and women's mikvah is as well
The community is not homogenous but there is a solid community of bnei torah.
If you want to check out the community- call the Minsters- they are huge
baalei chesed and incredibly gracious hosts.