How to inspire 12 YO who wants to abandon mitzvos?

amother

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 7:12 pm

Where to begin this sad story? My brother just told me that his daughter no longer wants to keep Shabbos. She is all of 12 years old and is ready to write off religion.

We are the ‘frum’ relatives, and she seems to enjoy coming to visit us. We haven't done much philosophical conversation though.

My brother is more modern, which is perfectly fine. Except that when they decided that the only school that made sense was Conservative – what should I have done? Pointed out that it’s not a great way to have your kid turn out keeping mitzvos? I tried to subtly ask how they thought that woud turn out… well, it wasn’t really rocket science, considering none of the older half-siblings are mitzvah-observant, and they supposedly went to more O schools. (Oh, also, most (or all) of her friends are not mitzvah observant.)

Don’t jump, ladies who were raised C & became O. That’s way different than being brought up with conflicts left and right.

So, is there anything for us to do besides daven? I don’t think Oorah is her speed. She’s officially been in a ‘day school’ & is knowledgeable. She goes to an Orthodox co-ed camp, I think. She knows what Shabbos is, I don't think she'll get 'blown away' by Shabbos in Girls' Zone.

My brother wants to take her to Israel & hope she will be inspired. By what, exactly? A tour guide who can show them all the amazing things mentioned in the Tanach & therefore she’ll believe in the Tanach? If anyone has any suggestions in that area, please share.

Does anyone know about Gateways programming? Do they have sessions for her age or just fun activities? Or is she too young to discuss philosophy and emunah?

I am really torn up about this.

granolamom

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 8:04 pm

For now, the number one thing you can be doing is to continue having a positive relationship with her, love her, value her.
I think her father has a good idea, Israel is inspiring for kids like that. Just being in a place that is ours, walking the land, feeling the brotherhood, all that, is very powerful for a young teen. feeling connected to Jews even if not Judaism right now, is a very good thing to encourage. feeling connected to G-d even if not to mitzvos is a very good thing.
work through your own judgements about kids who choose a secular lifestyle. obviously I would never recommend that to my children but they will eventually make their own choices in life. I dont think we have any power to guide if we come from a place of fear or guilt, so make sure your relationship with her is based on love for her as who she is and not based on the choices she makes.
she's still pretty young, maybe she's testing? maybe she wants to see who will stand by her no matter what choices she makes? maybe she's challenging her parents to stand by their own convictions or to set limits? I dont know whats going on in the family but there are plenty of possibilities.
in any case, what she says at age 12 doesnt necessarily mean she will end up one way or the other.

amother

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 8:15 pm

Her siblings all did a semester in Israel. I hope it gave them positive Jewish identity. But when you get 'universalist" message, or do I mean 'inclusionary'? So you very likely end up thinking that Jews are no different than anyone else, and why does it matter if I marry one or not?

Quote:

Call Oorah and get her a torah mate to start. Then send her to girl zone next summer

But is that really appropriate for a girl from a supposedly Orthodox home? And why would she be interested?

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 10:06 pm

"We are the ‘frum’ relatives, and she seems to enjoy coming to visit us. We haven't done much philosophical conversation though. "

That's not good. Start talking. She is getting old enough for philosophical conversation.

If she doesn't get the point of mitzvoth, you can't expect her to choose to do them, especially as she has been given so much choice and leeway about that. The burden of choosing is on her shoulders; give her some reasons besides "just do, by rote" and "my aunt does this".

Do some BT style reading, such as Aryeh Kaplan and others. See things through her eyes. Fill your mind with what would inspire and convince YOU, if you weren't already convinced. You will then have some things to say to her.

Explain and teach and share.

See if you can take challah with her, and light candles with her. As you say she is 12w let her know she is now legal to do those things. Simply let the action touch her, and quietly let her see what it means to you.

Make it fun. It's not spinach.

As for marrying, her parents should make a plain statement, loudly audible to their children, in clear tones, that they want them to marry Jews. What your parents want matters, when you are 12, and it stays inside you later. But now is the time, while the ears are still listening.

marina

Mon, Sep 15 2014, 11:01 pm

I don't even know why I'm writing this, b/c I will just sound like Dolly and also I'm really not a big kiruv fan.

But you should have her check out chabad and chabad camps. That's how I got pulled in. I was in an MO school and could care less about religion. But chabad was fun and nice and warm and fuzzy all over.... ok I'll stop now.

DrMom

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 2:11 am

Can you provide more background?

Why did your brother, who is Orthodox, decide the best school for her was a Conservative one?

That, plus the fact that her older half-siblings are not observant, suggests that perhaps her parents are broadcasting messages to her that observance isn't really a priority.

Also, you mentioned half-siblings. Is her step-mother observant? Did the level of observance change when her father remarried?

It sounds like there may be some complicated family dynamics here.

spinkles

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 6:30 am

I disagree about the philosophical questions (as someone with a daughter that age, it makes them squirmy and uncomfortable unless they brought it up themselves, which they usually won't).

FUN! She wants FUN! So make your home FUN! And that doesn't mean lighting candles and other "spiritual" things my daughter would call boring. Does she like to bake elaborate stuff for Yom Tov? Is she good with tools and eager to help put up the sukkah? Or decorate it all fancy? As long as you keep the focus on having fun fun fun and DOING, you'll reach her.

rachelbg

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 10:48 am

marina wrote:

You might as well add (If you're channeling Dolly, after all): And give her a nice tube of lipstick and a fantastic haircut to make her feel good about herself. Smile

**

Really, though, at this age I think the best course is to love her unconditionally, don't push anything Jewish at her, just be your good frum self around her. If she could create a nice, meaningful relationship with a 'big sister' type, not even to focus on Judaism, that could give her an opening to talk, learn about herself, and eventually be open to hearing friendly advice from that mentor. Maybe the mentor could eventually steer her to a cool camp or club or something. At this age, it is so important to just support her and love her. (I teach students like this, of this age.)

**Edit: And pearls. Definitely give her pearls.

amother

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 1:51 pm

OP here. I was on support staff for a couple of the original Arachim events, so I am familiar with a lot of the material. (Plus I watch Rav Amnon Yosef, Rav Zamir Cohen etc for fun...)

If she expressed interest in a philosophical convo, I would have plenty to say. I didnt have a clue she was struggling. Though honestly, I think it's more about, my friends don't keep Shabbos, why would I want to?

My brother had his challenges. He says he was at the same point at that age. I don't remember so many details but he did go off on a macrobiotic/Eastern meditation weekend one Tisha B'Av, and I stayed up all night saying the whole Sefer Tehillim, so perhaps that's part of the reason he came back!

He and my niece's mother each had kids from first marriage, so they are are her half-sibs, if you follow. No step-mom at the moment.

Mom is a BT who maintains some very open views. I don't know how they decided on the school exactly, other than other alternatives weren't working. For some of us, a C school would be no more of a choice than public school, but hey, everyone to their own views. But 'ezehu hachacham, haroeh es hanolad' - if you're smart, you see the possible outcomes of your actions.

The half-sibs other parents (IOW, the exes of these parents) are not exactly good role models, which of course impacts considerably on the sibs, who, in turn, impact on this child. And the general philosophy of 'inclusion' and 'acceptance' means that you approve of all your kids' friends, and the lifestyles of the friends' parents are also wonderful and fine. IYKWIM.

They have Chabad friends.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 2:12 pm

"If she expressed interest in a philosophical convo, I would have plenty to say. I didnt have a clue she was struggling. Though honestly, I think it's more about, my friends don't keep Shabbos, why would I want to?"

Hello. I am twelve years old. I have an interest philosophy. Please, tell me why you do these mitzvahs.

OP, only the Wise son can find the words to say that. Your niece isn't Wicked, so that leaves her the other Two Options.

YOU have to open your mouth and tell the kid what's up with why you think and feel what you do.

If you are just very nice to her much will be accomplished, as many posters have said upthread.

Try to teach her that just as other people have a right to be them, she has a right to be her, too. She has a right to her odd ways and customs. She doesn't have to justify them to her friends. Judaism is just as rainbow-y and crunchy as all the other things going on around her.

And as your Tehillim worked last time, I can only say, do what worked last time. Your prayers seem to be very powerful.

As for lipstick and pearls, not at this age. Her right to not be a woman yet sxully, even though she is a legal one religiously for challah and candles, is one of your more important messages, which will be vigorously counteracted by everything else she is going to hear, very soon, if not already.

However in an age appropriate way, yes, communicate that looking classy and attractive is her portion. Communicate that it's not: be secular and be attractive, or, be religious and look stupid. Show her that's a false choice and she can be attractive without being secular.

In fact, be on the watch for just that issue.

So, stop waiting for people to "express an interest". Only one person in four knows how, and even they sometimes wait decades to do it.

debsey

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 3:06 pm

I'm confused.
OP, can you clarify?
I don't know much about kiruv, but I know LOTS about 12 year old girls. Did she made a dramatic announcement "I'm not keeping Shabbos anymore! At the grand old age of 12 I have solved all of philosophy's conundrums and decided - There is no G-d, or if there is, He doesn't want us to keep shabbos"
OR, did she say "There's a really cool gymnastic class on Saturday. I want to go." And dad said "Well, what about shabbos?" and she said "That's not nearly as essential to my life as GYMNASTICS!"

If it is choice A, she clearly wants to be respected and engaged with as a thinking, philosophical person, and I'd respect that choice. She's a thinker. Join with her through thought.

If it is choice B, I'd say just connect with her and try to be close. Eventually, she will realize that having a meaningful connection to G-d is important, and that she has a spiritual heritage to follow. This may not happen until she's in her 20s, but you be that mental model of "person with spiritual connection to G-d that enhances her life."
And sure - send her to a Chabad event, or Ooorah, or anything else. It just may not be as attractive as "gymnastics" or "boyfriend" or "updating my facebook status RIGHT NOW."

debsey

amother

Tue, Sep 16 2014, 5:48 pm

A lot of good points, which I have forwarded to my dear bro.

I do think it's social as in,"My friends don't keep Shabbos, what would I do all day?", not, "I need to go to a gymnastics class".

Which is, of course, a function of not making sure to involve your child with other Shomer Shabbos kids in the area (of which there are, certainly) as well as not avoiding throwing her together with many non-Shomer Shabbos kids.

And a poster above is also right, daven, invite & have a good time. We can only try.

Still, anyone have exciting ideas for this trip to Israel (I hope DB is not wasting his money, because I don't really think it's the answer...)