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Forum -> Household Management -> Cleaning & Laundry
Do you live in Israel and have a cleaner?!
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 18 2014, 3:09 pm
amother wrote:
Even if it's acceptable for a Jew in Israel to do any job he or she wants - that doesn't mean you need to feel comfortable hiring them to clean your home. Would you hire an Arab to clean your house? Why is a Sri Lankan better than an Arab? Or a Jewish person to clean your home?
why cant I feel comfortable hiring a jew to clean my house? I would feel much better having a frum jewish woman than someone else. as I said when j looked for someone over 5 years ago this is who I found.
and a sri lankan or any other non arabic non jew would be chosen, for me over an arab because I would be slightly scared but I know many ppl who have arabic men or women cleaners.
I would always choose jewish labor for anything if I could.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 18 2014, 4:11 pm
This is a publicly visible forum for those who are proudly proclaiming that some jobs are ok for non jews but too low class for jews to do.

Personally, public or private, that is pure racism and makes me sick.

I am not ashamed to clean, but I dislike it, so I outsource that job, to someone who I respect and enjoy her company, and she did in fact come to my wedding. The fact that I employ her for a few hours a week has nothing to do with it.

I have worked as a cook in a camp kitchen, a cleaner, a waitress, a health care assistant, and other "low class" poorly paid jobs when I needed the money and had no better paid options. I'm not ashamed, or feel lower than someone who never had to do such jobs, it was just what life threw at me then, what I did to pay for food and board.

Being one of Hashem's chosen doesn't mean we are too holy to clean or work in menial jobs. Although I am sure someone can find a source that says we are. Right before our own judgement day, we can sure find plenty to be judging ourselves for.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 18 2014, 4:32 pm
Is it racist to say that I could never bring myself to pay my sister to clean my toilets? Because that's how some people feel.
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Frumdoc




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 18 2014, 4:46 pm
It is racist to say that because of their race or nationality one is too "high up" or holy or chashuv or superior or delicate or sensitive to clean your home, when another person is fine to do such a job because their race makes them inferior or low down.

If that is what you are saying, or what you mean, then, yes, I consider that racist.

What makes a person from the Philippines, Mexico or Romania more appropriate or qualified to clean or collect garbage simply due to their racial or ethnic background? It is simply a factor of financial need and educational achievement/ immigration and social standing that means some people work as cleaners and some as politicians or wealthy landowners.

My own great grandparents worked in slumland factories for a pittance when they emigrated, it was the only way to put food on the table. We all come from immigrants, and many started with nothing, working on street stalls selling shmatters or pickled herring or doing odd jobs/ handymen.

If a friend wanted to work as a cleaner, I would be the first to hire them, I know they are reliable, sensible and honest, and I already trust we would have a good working relationship, but I respect my cleaner and pay her a decent wage, she is not someone I would consider beneath me in any way or would ever take advantage of, financially or otherwise.
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m in Israel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 18 2014, 10:55 pm
I do understand that someone might not want to hire someone they know well to clean, nothing to do with race and religion. It is like someone mentioned earlier, the fact that they are having complete access to your mess, your bedroom, etc. might be uncomfortable. (Do I really want my friend to be seeing my bedroom/bathroom garbage? Wink )

However, beyond that I cannot understand why someone would not want to hire a frum woman to clean for them. If I had a choice of course I'd prefer to hire a frum woman, first of all to help her out financially (giving someone parnassah is the highest form of tzedaka, and in the laws of tzedakah a Jew would come before a non-Jew), and second of all because I'd be much less nervous about any mistakes in the kitchen. Someone who keeps the laws of Kashrus themselves will be much more used to the nuances of a kosher kitchen then someone who doesn't.

The cleaning lady I have now is a Jewish Russian immigrant who is not frum but a very lovely woman. I am very happy about the fact that I am able to give a job to another Jew. In general I try as much as possible to hire Jews for whatever work is necessary, simply because I feel that if I have a choice, why not hire "family". I view it more like "nepotism" than racism -- it is not that I don't want to hire non-Jews, or that I think they are inferior in any way, but if you feel that there is a certain kinship among Jews (which I do believe), then it is quite normal to give your own relatives first dibs at a job before looking farther away.

The first cleaning person that I had when I came to the country was a foreign worker (from the Philippines), but that was simply because I needed someone right away and that was who was recommended. (And in retrospect, yes, it was illegal, but I didn't realize at the time.) I was very happy with her and we got along just fine, but when she eventually left on her own I definitely tried to find a replacement who was Jewish. Since then I have only had Jewish cleaning help.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 18 2014, 11:55 pm
Maybe I have to go back and read what I wrote but it's the socioeconomic factor not racism (or maybe the socioeconomic factor causes racism?) The uneducated person who comes here from Philipines never hired someone to clean for them, never had wall to wall carpeting (neither do I but I could), never bought take out food... Their life is such poverty that they're willing to leave their family and come to Israel and take any low paying job since to them it's a lot of money that they send back to their starving family. Cleaning someone's house which has hot running water and a vacuum for this large sum of money is a dream job for them. We even have air conditioning so they don't sweat while they work. That's a step up in life. And - in Israel, if you work 40 hours a week cleaning houses (which my Israeli cleaning lady does - 2 jobs a day), you really make a nice salary for an Israeli.

And every country has it's own standard. If in America physical jobs like plumber, electrician, shelf hanger... are considered lower (I'm not sure, but it was said), in Israel those are respected high paying jobs. So when an Israeli goes to America and works as a shiputznik (handyman) Americans may look at him as a low-level worker since that's not what "our" kids grow up to be in America but in Israel it's respectable and pays well. So are Americans racists when they say "There's an Israeli in shul who I can hire to hang my shelves"? Only in their own head they are, the Israeli is happy to get the job. He did that in Israel and he wants to do it in America.

I know my plumber personally (he's even a Kohen - he blesses me every Shabbat - In Hashem's eyes he holds the highest job). I know my electrician. I'm friends with their wives too. I would never consider those low jobs (I pay them a fortune for their work and I beg them to come when I need them).

I would let my sister wash my floor while I did the dishes (or the opposite). I would not ask her to clean my toilets. I don't want to do it either but I will if I have to. I will let someone who I pay clean my toilets. They decided that it's a good high-paying job. It's not my fault that they do't have a college degree. They want the job. Some people think that cutting open hearts with all it's blood is the most disgusting job. They don't wish they were a surgeon.
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Dawling




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 19 2014, 3:47 am
OP, where are you?
We haven't heard from you in a while.
Curious to hear your reactions.
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Sanguine




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 19 2014, 4:14 am
Dawling wrote:
OP, where are you?
We haven't heard from you in a while.
Curious to hear your reactions.

She's looking for non-clumpy onion powder Very Happy
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abby1776




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 19 2014, 4:44 am
Actually in the United States plumbers and electricians do really well, are well paid, need a lot of schooling and generally should be licensed so they need to take an licensing exam. They are usually highly educated and many electricians and plumbers are members of a union which is really hard to get into.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 19 2014, 5:02 am
Sanguine wrote:
Maybe I have to go back and read what I wrote but it's the socioeconomic factor not racism (or maybe the socioeconomic factor causes racism?) The uneducated person who comes here from Philipines never hired someone to clean for them, never had wall to wall carpeting (neither do I but I could), never bought take out food... Their life is such poverty that they're willing to leave their family and come to Israel and take any low paying job since to them it's a lot of money that they send back to their starving family. Cleaning someone's house which has hot running water and a vacuum for this large sum of money is a dream job for them. We even have air conditioning so they don't sweat while they work. That's a step up in life. And - in Israel, if you work 40 hours a week cleaning houses (which my Israeli cleaning lady does - 2 jobs a day), you really make a nice salary for an Israeli.

And every country has it's own standard. If in America physical jobs like plumber, electrician, shelf hanger... are considered lower (I'm not sure, but it was said), in Israel those are respected high paying jobs. So when an Israeli goes to America and works as a shiputznik (handyman) Americans may look at him as a low-level worker since that's not what "our" kids grow up to be in America but in Israel it's respectable and pays well. So are Americans racists when they say "There's an Israeli in shul who I can hire to hang my shelves"? Only in their own head they are, the Israeli is happy to get the job. He did that in Israel and he wants to do it in America.

I know my plumber personally (he's even a Kohen - he blesses me every Shabbat - In Hashem's eyes he holds the highest job). I know my electrician. I'm friends with their wives too. I would never consider those low jobs (I pay them a fortune for their work and I beg them to come when I need them).

I would let my sister wash my floor while I did the dishes (or the opposite). I would not ask her to clean my toilets. I don't want to do it either but I will if I have to. I will let someone who I pay clean my toilets. They decided that it's a good high-paying job. It's not my fault that they do't have a college degree. They want the job. Some people think that cutting open hearts with all it's blood is the most disgusting job. They don't wish they were a surgeon.



An America, plumbers, electricians, etc... Are not considered low paying or low class. It is considered blue collar work, that can earn a lot of money.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 19 2014, 5:05 am
abby1776 wrote:
Actually in the United States plumbers and electricians do really well, are well paid, need a lot of schooling and generally should be licensed so they need to take an licensing exam. They are usually highly educated and many electricians and plumbers are members of a union which is really hard to get into.
same here. plumbers and electricians can do very nicely here in israel too.
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amother


 

Post Sat, Sep 20 2014, 11:12 am
Sanguine wrote:
Close your eyes and say "That's the beauty of a Jewish country". Everyone shops like crazy on Friday for Shabbat (which is why I try not to go near the crazy stores on Friday). Then the stores close early on Friday - The store owner also has to get home for Shabbat. On Shabbat they're closed. So by 2:00 Friday they want to be sure to be out of all vegetables. Go ahead. Make believe that you think it's wonderful. And I also think it's (not) wonderful that I can't buy milk on Motzei Shabbat.


I was joking-- I mean, not joking cause IT IS true (though I was referring to thursday as erev shabbos, not an hour before shabbos - I only buy challos on fridays), but because I find it funny. But I love living here, it's part of it.
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