emphasis on learning- yesheivish question

amother

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:02 am

I hope my question will be clear, I find that sometimes people misunderstand me on this website.

this is a question for people who ascribe to the yesheivish school system where boys go to school six days a week starting from a young age, high schools include night seder etc, the boys continue learning after that,,,, how does it work? My husband is very disturbed when he hears what your "average" yesheivish boy is expected to do and how at least in my nephews's yeshiva there is a peer pressure to do more- my nephew talks about his friend who learns all shabbos afternoon straight etc... how the boys learn even during the breaks....

when do boys get a chance to be kids? when do they get to run around? I tell my husband that there is a reason that hashem hasn't given us boys yet- my husband wouldn't be able to deal with it. I know someone who said she's very happy with her all girl family, for that exact reason. The more modern school system isn't for us either....

My husband is also disturbed by what he feels as the attitude of only learning is worthwhile. He hears stories about how someone finally discovered learning and they felt like they had wasted their life before that, he claims the stories are always about learning, not about becoming frum, getting involved in chessed, just learning. There's this belief that until someone is serious about learning they are just wasting time. He personally doesn't like learning, does it only as an obligation. I'm incredibly impressed that he wakes up early to learn even though he really doesn't like it.

We are hopefully moving so hopefully it will be better but it gets him very depressed to hear yesheivish people speak- he feels like there is this attitude that you are less then if you aren't learning- whatever happened to the attitude of one tribe learning and one tribe supporting- if we would bring that back my husband would be thrilled to support because he would feel like HE is valued also. Right now it really gets him down Sad

please help us to understand.

causemommysaid

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:15 am

unless you are sending to a MO school chances are your kid will be in that system even if you dont believe in it. there simply is nothing else.

(actually MO schools are full of academic pressure as well so its not they the kids are parting there either)

fact is- it is good for kids to work hard. it is good for them to play hard. teaches them good skills for life. as a good parent make sure your kid is learning secular subjects also, make sure you sign them up for some sort of sport, and keep them leveled when their schools push learning too hard. let them take an R&R once in a while. dont push them if they want to skip night seder sometimes. make sure they get involved in family activities and dont allow them to get out of it with the "learning" excuse.

basically its a balance. keep your eyes open and make sure you dont let the system push your kid too far while maintaining respect for the rebbis and principals.

amother

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:17 am

I feel your frustration. I think "yeshivishness" is relative. My boys go to a black hat yeshiva, and spent more hours there and at night than I'd like, but there is definitely time to play ball, go for pizza, take music lessons, and spend time with family. Very few of the fathers are in kollel or Rabbanus, but they align themselves with a right wing hashkafa. It could be that the community and exposure you have are too intense for him. Idk where you live, but there may be a shul/yeshiva not too far away that will be machshiv your husband's derech in avodas hashem and supporting Torah, without compromising on your hashkafic sensitivities. Any value system has extremes and moderation, whether charedi yiddishkeit or environmentalism etc, and each family needs to find balance in how pervasive that involvement will be in their lifestyle. The classical Torah sources imho, afaik, seem to support your husband's view, in that there are many ways to get close to Hashem and to promote Torah in the world. I hope you guys find your place among klal yisrael; you sound like really sincere people. Shana tova

causemommysaid

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 10:31 am

amother wrote:

I think many people don't go for the "yeshivish" view that only learning is important. The problem is that all mainstream yeshivos are set up to promote this viewpoint regardless if the students or parent body feel that way. The only way to get away from this mindset is to go to a chassidish or MO yeshiva which is not a solution since they are not really in line with the families hashkafa.

Chayalle

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 11:00 am

I heard R' Solomon from Lakewood say (and he's as yeshivish as you can get) that years ago he was learning in Kfar Chasidim, and there was a brilliant boy who was not learning well. The boy said when he was a child he was constantly pushed to learn and learn, so "when I should have been playing I was learning, now that I should be learning I'm playing."

He said this story when talking to mothers. His message was on the importance of giving children what they need in the right time. A child needs to have time to play. I do believe the yeshivos have this - they have recess time, playgrounds, Bein Hazmanim (where you will see those people who write to the local papers saying why do the boys need time off - THIS is why). I don't yet have sons but I see the boys in my neighborhood having lots of fun time together - there's always something going on. Bike riding, ball games, hide and seek, etc..they get plenty of recreation and exercise.

In terms of the yeshivish message of learning uber alles - we do say in davening every day "V'salmud Torah Knegged Kulam". Learning Torah is considered up there, but it also says in Pirkei Avos "HaLomeid al mnas laasos" - the highest level of learning is to learn in order to know the correct way to act. Learning Torah is the foundation of frum life, else how else would we know the Halacha?

I admire your DH's dedication to learning despite its being difficult for him. Does he have someone who can guide him toward learning something that he would enjoy?

I heard a tape by R' Avigdor Miller, where in the question and answer session at the end, a man asked what he should learn if his time for learning is limited. R' Miller said "He should learn Mah Shelibo Chafetz" - something that he enjoys and wants to learn. And this will lead him to even more learning.

amother

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 11:19 am

chayelle- I hope you don't mind that I forwarded your response to my husband- the problem is, is the learning of gemara nowadays al menat laasot? From what he's seen it's more of here is what the rabbis said- let us try to figure out why. Most of the topics don't apply nowadays... He would LOVE it if he he could find someone who can explain what we should be learning in order to improve ourselves from the gemarah- the gemarah is Hashem's word, if Hashem decided sooo much should be discussing isha sotah for example there must be a reason- something that should be taken away from it after someone finishes learning it. He feels like noone is focusing on that and it's more of an intellectual activity.

Ruchel

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 11:22 am

Yeshivishness is indeed relative.

Some learn more or less. Some may replace pressure on learning by chol pressure, beware. Often the schools ending very late do so because they want to ace both curriculums...

I can't advise you, but just around me I've seen very yeshivish schools with (known) lower or higher pressure on chol, or zero chol... on kodesh... most do not have night seder or Sunday school, but some have too. I also dislike the idea. Those who do that may often encourage or even force dorm.

I once asked an older friend why she doesn't send her son to the local small family type yeshiva but instead he gets bussed 2 hours each way. She said yeshiva is modern yeshivish/open, but absolutely no decent chol level. But, also no pressure on kodesh so it does fit some types...

amother

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 11:37 am

causemommysaid: why does NOONE start a yeshiva or beis yaakov that is THEIR hashkafa. I'm sure there are people who are wealthy enough. I mentioned to my husband that in my experiance at least the hanhalah of a school is usually at least a little bit more to the right then the student body. For example if most of the parents don't cover their hair, the principal's wife will etc... we were trying to figure out why that was.

self-actualization

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 12:36 pm

In response to the post about R' Akiva Eiger. In seminary I learned that the supporters of Torah do gain the knowledge and skill of the learners in the next world. That's why they sit in the circle together learning Torah. (This has something to do with the passuk of "semach Zevulun b'chailecha v'Yissachar b'oholecha"). So there is at least one opinion that supporting Torah propels you to become a skilled Torah learner in the next world.

happymom4

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 1:06 pm

Funny...we just had this conversation with a bunch of boys that are dorming in our area for the year. All from different places but desperatley needed an out of town yeshiva. They felt like they were being suffocated in brooklyn/lakewood system. They were a bunch of very nice boys but needed something that was not available in NY area (all yeshivish)

What ever happened to "Chanoch Lenaar al pi darco"??
I find it difficult to always follow the majority. Some kids really can not handle that type of intense system. They are not bad kids, or lazy ect...they just need a bit more space/creativity/activity
They system needs to change
Hope it does soon!

kollel wife

Tue, Sep 23 2014, 1:11 pm

From my personal, Lakewood experience, there are more demanding yeshivas and less demanding yeshivas, and the less demanding ones are not shunned whatsover. I think they are the majority of high schools in Lakewood.

But ... the boys don't always find good things to do in their free time in the less demanding yeshivas.

So that may be why night seder, long Sundays etc becomes mandatory in high school. I've never seen it in elementary school.