I was at a secular bat mitzvah- felt kind of sad

Scrabble123

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 11:23 am

mommy2b2c wrote:

The main difference I can think of right now is high heels. There is no way to make high heels for a little girl, there is no one that thinks that's normal. Gowns can be designed for two year olds. Mini skirts are different, because mini skirts CAN be designed for all ages.

High Heels? Little Girl? Is 12 a little girl? Growing up I also had age appropriate high heels. There is nothing wrong with age appropriate heels. We're not talking about wearing Manolos. I did not wear makeup at 12, but some girls did for special events, but heels was something that was totally okay and can really be done in a decent, refined, age-appropriate manner.

Scrabble123

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 11:58 am

I'm not saying that I particularly like any of these styles, but they are not inappropriate for children under 16 for party attire (or a school dance)!

http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/ju....._10_C

http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/do.....asion

http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/ke.....egory

http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/ke.....asion

http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/st.....asion

http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/co.....asion

Wow! And I think that putting children in black, gray, and other dark colors is inappropriate!

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 12:01 pm

It's all icky. A kid should wear neat hair and an adorable dress that is modest.

As for What Goes On, none of you know. Your memories are old. Your memories are out of date. It's different now. Even in the last ten years it has gotten very different, and none of you are fifteen. You are all married women, and religious.

It is a mentality: you don't put heels and makeup on the young because it distorts how they think. They are vague about what sx is, but they get the point that they are objects and should be paraded.

A culture needs a defining uniform that symbolically says: "This Is A Not-Sxualized Person. Don't Get Turned On By This Person. Out Of Bounds. No." When kids and women wear the same stuff, that distinction is blurred, and it shouldn't be blurred.

When I see a slim teenager in the same jeans and T shirt as her fat mother, I know the men of that family are being asked to see no difference between them, and one of them is a lot cuter than the other. Abuse can follow. Ouch.

In an earlier day, stylized clothing sharply defined that one of them was a Woman and the other was definitely not. Or, not to be thought of that way, anyway.

If you dress kids like adults, you are saying they sort of are adults, a little bit anyway, and that makes it much harder to tell them what to do. "Because I am your mommy and I say so" gets a lot harder to enforce. You have given them powerful symbolism that they are pretty grown up now, and can maybe, sort of, start making their own decisions.

Discipline problems follow. And the young are not geniuses about what they should do. But they have been bathed and coated in mature symbolism.

Ick.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Oct 01 2014, 1:38 pm; edited 2 times in total

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 12:11 pm

A girl who has never been told "you are not old enough for that" is not having a good life.

I am an old lady. I look ravishing in a lot of stuff young women can't wear. And shouldn't wear. And don't need to wear. I haven't got youth, but I've got the dignity, flash, décor, and chic of old age. These phases of life are absolutely necessary for happiness.

I am not an old bag in a T shirt. There are a lot of those.

Women: don't let the young look like you, or all you will look like is older versions of the perfect woman, which will become: them. Defend yourself.

Make them look pure, so you can look chic.

If you are all dressed the same, you will lose that one.

Of course they are slimmer, bouncier, and have tighter faces than you do. They are supposed to. You were that way once, too. It's fair.

But don't sexualize your daughters, for your own sake, as well as theirs, if you needed another reason.

Harumph.

amother

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 12:26 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

actually, the larger question (for me, at least) is that at the end of the day, did the bat mitzvah girl feel her day was special?

I remember mine with exacting clarity, and it was up there in the top three worst days ever. that was my parents' fault, because the day had absolutely nothing to do with me at all.

of course her day should be special but that has nothing to do with my thread.

Should societal issues never be brought up because the day is only about the bat mitzvah girl and therefore all other issues are irrelevant?

its not like I got up on the table and bemoaned the issue during the simcha. I am bringing up a valid point which in no way invalidates the girl's special day.

amother

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 12:35 pm

zaq wrote:

Hon, why are you picking on secular folks? Check out the imamother archives--many years ago there was a thread in which women unabashedly stated that they put mascara and other makeup on their infant BOYS for picture-taking purposes. Explain that, Sherlock.

not picking on anyone. actually hashkafically I am very left wing liberal. I am a big believer in live and let live.

these girls were so jarring that even my liberal mind was shocked.

these were not cute mini skirts and heels. These girls looked like they were ready to go clubbing. even more than that. no 12 year old is ready for that.

SacN

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 1:14 pm

Quote:

A secular girl wearing a strapless mini dress and heels, for example, is just doing what is culturally appropriate for her -- it's the same as the adults wear in her circles, so that's how she sees it as beautiful. There is no more or less of a reason that should not be 12 year old attire than a full face of makeup. It's all about what you're used to that normalizes it.

This.

I was this girl. My dress had spaghetti straps, and I was 13, but otherwise, I remember this feeling very clearly.
My dress and my four inch heels made me feel grown up. Did I feel s3xy? No. The term wasn't even on my radar. Nothing to do with boys. That's what adults wear at parties.
I felt like I looked like the older teenagers/young adults I saw around me. I liked that. I wanted to be seen as respectably mature.
I also wore a suit to the part of my bat mitzvah that took place in synagogue. Because thats what adults wear on serious occasions.

Ruchel

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 1:32 pm

One can be (un)tznius and still (in)appropriate age wise. 4 inch heels? at 13? my [gentile] friends never were allowed that. Ever. It's not even pretty at that age (some would say never, I like heels).

A kiddy strappy dress is not age-inappropriate, just untznius.

I never expected to dress adult before I was adult. Sometimes I was allowed to push the envelope, but never quite that far. Sure I had dreams, and boy did I enjoy dressing grown up while it was allowed. What do you do at 16/18 if you dress like a clubber at bat mitsva Sad

I PRAY my kids are allowed by society to be kids, enjoy what is allowed to them, and not be those odd immature but grown up looking teens. Surprised

DrMom

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 1:42 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

It's all icky. A kid should wear neat hair and an adorable dress that is modest.

As for What Goes On, none of you know. Your memories are old. Your memories are out of date. It's different now. Even in the last ten years it has gotten very different, and none of you are fifteen. You are all married women, and religious.

It is a mentality: you don't put heels and makeup on the young because it distorts how they think.

A culture needs a defining uniform that symbolically says: "This Is A Not-Sxualized Person. Don't Get Turned On By This Peron. Out Of Bounds. No." When kids and women wear the same stuff, that distinction is blurred, and it shouldn't be blurred.

When I see a slim teenager in the same jeans and T shirt as her fat mother, I know the men of that family are being asked to see no difference between them, and one of them is a lot cuter than the other. Abuse can follow. Ouch.

In an earlier day, stylized clothing sharply defined that one of them was a Woman and the other was definitely not. Or, not to be thought of that way, anyway.

If you dress kids like adults, you are saying they sort of are adults, a little bit anyway, and that makes it much harder to tell them what to do. "Because I am your mommy and I say so" gets a lot harder to enforce. You have given them powerful symbolism that they are pretty grown up now, and can maybe, sort of, start making their own decisions.

Discipline problems follow. And the young are not geniuses about what they should do. But they have been bathed and coated in mature symbolism.

Ick.

Um, I think somewhere in there you are expressing the opinion (with which I agree) that sexualized clothing and styling is inappropriate for children.

But whoa.

A young girl in a tee-shirt and jeans is asking to be abused because she's a better-looking version of her mother? What sort of warped logic is that?

What if the mother and daughter dress in a white shirt, cardigan, and skirt 4" below the knee, but the daughter is prettier or slimmer than the mother? She deserves abuse?

If I wear the same dress as my friend but I am cuter, her husband is likely to rape me?

What?

DrMom

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 1:50 pm

amother wrote:

I don't know where this event took place, but I can attest that secular bat mitzvah parties here in Israel often resemble underage nightclubs. I don't know that anything untoward happens, but the mode of dress is definitely clubby.

Barbara

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 2:12 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Really.

So when my ultra-tzniut friend lets her so-sweet I wish all of you could have such a nice kid teenage daughter borrow her sweater, she's telling her husband that he should go ahead and molest the child?

Somehow, I don't think so.

What I think is that you have a warped, sick mind.

And by the way, what message do you think girls get when you tell them at age 3 or 6 to start covering up, or that they can't be alone with boys, or that they can't hug "Uncle" Joe who was abba's best friend since they were 6? Or with all of the restrictions on what they can do and say because of "shidduchim"?

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 2:45 pm

I am advocating what used to be standard and normal: rather different-looking styling for the Grown if still unmarried, the Young Lady, and the not yet grown, the firmly under-age, the out of bounds, the kid. I think the cut-off age used to be sixteen.

Exactly what badges of grown-upness are adopted can be up for discussion.

Of course nice men can tell the difference and guard their thoughts. I am saying there are ways to mark the line more firmly. The OP said she was sad to see just how far down the age of tartiness had been pushed. She also regretted tartiness in general. That these things always go younger and younger was part of her point.

I have occasionally mentioned wearing pearls (real or not). Whatever you think of pearls, that illustrates my point, pearls are or can be a badge of Madame Grownup. They can be kept off the necks of the underage with the sentence I mentioned "that's too old for you".

This doesn't work the other way. Little boys look great in pint-sized men's clothing.

It's not a symmetrical universe.

Yes, there are women who abuse young boys, but that's not a clothing issue. That's a criminal issue. The structure of the problem is not the same.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 2:57 pm

"What if the mother and daughter dress in a white shirt, cardigan, and skirt 4" below the knee, but the daughter is prettier or slimmer than the mother? She deserves abuse? "

No. But the mother would be wise to put on some badge of rank. Pearls, or a necklace her daughter would not wear, something, even something small.

No, a teenage girl should not dress identically to her mother or what's the use of growing up? What is there to look forward to? And where is the mother's authority? Of course it's on the inside, but the king needs his robe, crown and throne: visuals matter.

Then that mother complains that nobody listens!

Then she complains that she feels like, and is treated like, a maid and a schmatte!

Well, she has to wear the signage! This has been neglected.

I am for the dignity and respect due to woman! What I am saying is PRO-woman.

Your mother isn't just your mother, she's Your Mother. See the capital letters? She is your queen. Let her look it. According to her taste, customs and means, but something. Something.

When an over-tarted young girl grows up, she will be mightily bemused at the lack of applause. She has no new outfit to show off. There's no difference.

At least we preserve the difference between the genders! Females in skirts, males in pants.

Lots of people just hope to grab the right size T shirt and jeans, but otherwise it's everybody into the pool.

I am pitying, not scorning them. I think they have been robbed. I hurt about it and I only want the best for them. They should take back their birthright of looking like who and what they are. Women and men. Girls and boys.

And formality. Which means that their lives have a shape, a form.

People need formality. Otherwise they are pudding. Shapeless, passive, squashed.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Oct 01 2014, 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 2:58 pm

I did comment earlier in this thread about how mothers are setting the standard at these receptions. Having read through this thread I really feel as Jewish mothers we need to start the dialogue as early as possible about what attire and behavior is appropriate for our children. Even more so during these troubling times, when culture is about being s-xual and provocative. The last non-observant reception I attended I looked liked I was dressed for Siberia compared to the other ladies. My dd had on a cute dress with a shrug, almost instantaneously, we saw how WE stood out. I was very jarred by this experience and I feel like that I really want to give up on attending these functions for this very reason.

My dd is not even 10 yet and she still plays with dolls while her peers are into Arianna Grande and Selena Gomez. I am so happy I do not have cable TV! Let my dd play with her dolls and collect stickers! She is not being sheltered she is being guided into a safe world of play and learning from a good role model, HER MOTHER!

Just venting, because today's society is truly the pits in terms of morality.