I was at a secular bat mitzvah- felt kind of sad

Scrabble123

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 3:10 pm

amother wrote:

I did comment earlier in this thread about how mothers are setting the standard at these receptions. Having read through this thread I really feel as Jewish mothers we need to start the dialogue as early as possible about what attire and behavior is appropriate for our children. Even more so during these troubling times, when culture is about being s-xual and provocative. The last non-observant reception I attended I looked liked I was dressed for Siberia compared to the other ladies. My dd had on a cute dress with a shrug, almost instantaneously, we saw how WE stood out. I was very jarred by this experience and I feel like that I really want to give up on attending these functions for this very reason.

My dd is not even 10 yet and she still plays with dolls while her peers are into Arianna Grande and Selena Gomez. I am so happy I do not have cable TV! Let my dd play with her dolls and collect stickers! She is not being sheltered she is being guided into a safe world of play and learning from a good role model, HER MOTHER!

Just venting, because today's society is truly the pits in terms of morality.

I think that it really depends what crowd you are talking about. When I attend non religious events, I don't scream FRUM PERSON here although I wear long skirts, arms, shaitel, etc. It's not fair to put all non frum people in one box called "provocative and s3xual!" Obviously not everyone is dressed like me, but there are always a large amount of people in 2 piece suits (which are knee length), and even in appropriate shorter dresses/pant suits/evening wear/etc. If someone would be wearing a mini skirt and bust revealing tank top with 6 inch pumps they would have stood out more than I did!

It's more important to teach your child about having self respect, as well as respect for others (no matter what level of observance), about making your own decisions, and being confident with them and in yourself.

amother

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 3:20 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

Absolutely, respect both ways.... and yes it does depend on the crowd, In my situation everyone is dressed highly inappropriate, there is no kosher food, and the music is embarassing. I feel like it is not the Frum place to be. By the way, I am very Modern Orthodox. I just feel like why expose my kids to this circus when I do not have to?

DrMom

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 3:23 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I have occasionally mentioned wearing pearls (real or not). Whatever you think of pearls, that illustrates my point, pearls are or can be a badge of Madame Grownup. They can be kept off the necks of the underage with the sentence I mentioned "that's too old for you".

This doesn't work the other way. Little boys look great in pint-sized men's clothing.

It's not a symmetrical universe.

Yes, there are women who abuse young boys, but that's not a clothing issue. That's a criminal issue. The structure of the problem is not the same.

Ah, so women who abuse young boys = criminal issue.
Men who abuse young girls = clothing (and apparently, jewelry) issue

This reasoning is psychotic.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 3:35 pm

Of course all inappropriate zxual conduct should be prosecuted no matter which gender does it or to whom.

I am talking about semiotics.

This thread is about unhealthy culture.

The women who rape underage males would not be put off by any kind of proper clothing.

Really criminal males won't either, but there is no point dressing the young in a tarty way anyway.

I was mentioning temptation. There is no point dangling temptation in front of people even if the people are virtuous and most of the time nothing actionable at law happens. There can be an unhealthy vibe anyway.

I was advocating sending clear visual signals that some humans are of mature age and some humans are of immature age.

The very liberal OP said she was shocked and disgusted and we are sympathizing with her. Nobody has said it was fine. There are a few differences about exactly what is going too far.

I made the point that behind that issue is another forgotten issue, that of the sameness of all clothing and the absence of clear badges distinguishing women from girls. I pointed out that such distinctions keep everybody in age-appropriate conduct.

Meaning: the little are cute, the young are adorable, the mature are looked up to, and the old are respected.

Without that: the young are perhaps too cute, as at this simcha, the mature are merely overweight versions of the young, and the old, undefended by any conventions of elegance, are merely unsightly wrecks of their former selves, adorned only by resignation.

That's not so great. Not one of those three kinds of females is having a good time.

Let us not forget taste, elegance, rules. They protect us.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 3:50 pm

Yes, Scrabble, there are secular people with taste and brains, and with modestly dressed and properly acting children. B"H.

They don't find it easy either, in today's climate.

My own family are very correct.

They just don't marry or have children. Something froze up and shriveled inside them, somewhere, and the surrounding culture got to them anyway, even though they are modest and nice.

That might happen to Jews too; if sx is just sxy dress and high heels, not a reproductive matter.

The death of the family is in here someplace.

This how that works: if all ages of women and girls dress alike, then family roles are not visually reinforced. Once the role distinctions are effaced visually, it is only a matter of time before they are effaced in other ways, and disappear in fact. The Kid is a role. Look it. The Young Lady is a role. Dress it. The Married Lady is a role. Wear its badges.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Wed, Oct 01 2014, 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Barbara

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 4:02 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I am advocating what used to be standard and normal: rather different-looking styling for the Grown if still unmarried, the Young Lady, and the not yet grown, the firmly under-age, the out of bounds, the kid. I think the cut-off age used to be sixteen.

Exactly what badges of grown-upness are adopted can be up for discussion.

Of course nice men can tell the difference and guard their thoughts. I am saying there are ways to mark the line more firmly. The OP said she was sad to see just how far down the age of tartiness had been pushed. She also regretted tartiness in general. That these things always go younger and younger was part of her point.

I have occasionally mentioned wearing pearls (real or not). Whatever you think of pearls, that illustrates my point, pearls are or can be a badge of Madame Grownup. They can be kept off the necks of the underage with the sentence I mentioned "that's too old for you".

This doesn't work the other way. Little boys look great in pint-sized men's clothing.

It's not a symmetrical universe.

Yes, there are women who abuse young boys, but that's not a clothing issue. That's a criminal issue. The structure of the problem is not the same.

IOW, if a little boy is molested, it is the molester's fault.

If a little girl is molested, its all her fault, she was asking for it (or her parents were asking that it happen to her) because of the way she dresses.

That is sick and disgusting.

I don't care if a teen or tween or little girl walks around in a g-string and pasties with 6 inch stilettos, swinging her hips and hair. No one has the right to touch her without her permission. Period. Full stop.

Whether she SHOULD walk around like that is a wholly different issue.

amother

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 5:30 pm

DrMom wrote:

I don't know where this event took place, but I can attest that secular bat mitzvah parties here in Israel often resemble underage nightclubs. I don't know that anything untoward happens, but the mode of dress is definitely clubby.

op here

yes the event was like a club. strobe lights, a disco ball/music, an open bar (prob the kids did not get served alcohol. must have been for the adults)

I found it really off that this is what ADULTS were arranging for a child's event. I guess the clothing bothered me more than the club like feel because I felt that the girls were being turned into sxualized beings when they were so young.

Scrabble123

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 7:39 pm

amother wrote:

Wow. I know what you mean. I once attended a funeral where someone was discussing the deceased's bedroom life in the eulogy. It was as bad as it gets....

zaq

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 10:03 pm

DrMom wrote:

I didn't think "modern" = spike heels + long sheitels.

"Provocative" perhaps, or "sxualized." But "modern"??

Hear, hear, DrMom! I'm sick and tired of "modern" being used by the charedi world in general and this site in particular as a euphemism for "less observant" "inappropriate" and "heading OTD". "modern" orthodoxy is just that: orthodoxy that accepts certain values of modern life such as secular education and some aspects of secular culture (certanly not all). when someone is dressing like a streetwalker, she is not being "modern"--she's being inappropriate.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 10:11 pm

zaq wrote:

A) I am not charedi

B) I explained already that I meant more to the left, not modern orthodox.

Im sick and tired of having every word picked apart.

joy613

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 10:13 pm

It's been said on this thread (I think?) and many other times on this site, that when people use the term 'modern' to describe someone they do NOT mean they are Modern Orthodox. It just means they are less observant, more with it, etc.

Silly example but just to give an idea: the women in a community all cover their legs and one girl does not, others might say that shes " a little more modern". If she doesn't cover her knees they'll say "she's really modern".
Doesn't really mean much because it's relative to who the person is being compared to. But it has nothing to do with being MO.

And nothing anyone posts here is going to change this use of the word. A whole segment of the frum population talk like this.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 10:22 pm

Hashem loves me wrote:

This is what I was trying to explain.

For example, if a woman's whole family wears a shpitzel and seamed stockings and she wears black tights and a wig. I would say she is more modern then her family. modern not Modern orthodox. Its not that confusing.

zaq

Wed, Oct 01 2014, 10:37 pm

DrMom wrote:

I disagree.

That makes two of us.
Like Dolly Welsh, I miss the days when there were definite "stages" in dress and you graduated from one to the next. It was a huge thrill to progress from little-girl gathered-waist dresses with puffy sleeves (think Shirley Temple) and buttons up the back to tailored "juniors" dresses, from ankle socks to knee-highs to pantyhose. Naturally we all experminented with makeup on the sly in jr. high, but except for a few girls who were somewhat precocious (they happened to also be the ones who matured physically sooner than the rest), no one really wore it except on very special occasions even in HS. My HS had a no-makeup rule, and most girls complied, though there were always some who flouted the rule. If you had pierced ears--and most of us didn't until around bat mitzvah--you wore little studs till a certain age at which dangly earrings became acceptable. There was an age at which you started carrying a purse, an age at which you started wearing heels and nylons for dressy occasions, an age at which you stopped using one kind of bookbag and started using another...and every single step along the way was new and exciting and you felt so grown up and special when you moved from one stage to another.

amother

Thu, Oct 02 2014, 12:41 am

marina wrote:

Oy! If only we lived in the olden days, when kids were allowed to be kids and girls were not sexualized or forced to grow up too fast.

Well, except for the really really old olden days, when 12 year old girls got married. And had kids. And took care of the entire household.

well thats just it.

if we are saying that 12 year olds are little girls then why do they look like they are 20?

if we are saying they are adults then why arent we letting them drink alcohol, get a drivers licence, get a job, get married etc..

cant have it both ways...

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Oct 02 2014, 12:46 am

mummiedearest wrote:

as opposed to Awful Orthodox, Dolly? Twisted Evil

No, that sleaze should not be dignified with a name. It wasn't anything. It was merely awful. Small a.

I thought your snark was cute, but I can't tell if you meant it to be.

Modern O with a capital has a philosophy. Sleaze doesn't have a philosophy, it's not thinking at all. It's just wandering around confused by the blinking lights, thinking it's hot stuff if it yells loudly enough. Always avoid crazy people.